Torador once again.

Pukka Bundook · 28th January 2017, 08:46 PM

Pardon for bringing up an old thread, but I have recently received this torador, though purchased last year!

The reason for bringing this to light again, is to enquire about a couple of things;
The stock , as in many Indian toradors, is joined in the fore-end.
This makes it a two-piece stock. Should both halves be glued together when I have the other repairs completed?...or, did they rely on bands or bindings to hold the foremost part snugly in place?

I have the buttstock glued back together through the bade break, but as the screws holding the parts together were not tight and the parts could fridge a little, there will be some further 'skin grafts' needed.
The bore is Very good, so will make a shooter when all repaired, And, there is no large breech cavity as we so often find on these arms! The last inch is slightly tighter than the rest of the bore, so Much easier to work with.

Will show photos of this in another thread.

Any further guidance /advice much appreciated.

Richard.

rickystl · 29th January 2017, 05:07 PM

Hi Richard.

Glad to hear the Torador is finally in your hands. It's a nice one.

STOCK: I have held two Toradors with that V shaped join in the fore stock. Yes, many seem to have been made this way. The join seemed to be about mid-way in the fore stock. One had a decorative, re-inforcing type band where the two stock pieces met, with two barrel bands around the barrel at that point. And the other specimen just had two barrel bands next to each other right where the two pieces of the stock met. I don't recall any evidence of glue. So I think the two pieces were held together as you mention above.
That said, as long as I was doing the other stock repairs, and I intended on shooting it, I would probably have that join glued together. It would add strength to the forearm wood. Would probably eliminate any future "wobble" in the forestock. Just my thoughts.

BARREL: That is really good news !!!!! That slightly narrow one inch area will mostly be filled with powder anyway. Should not be a problem loading and cleaning. But do double-check the breech plug area. But if it looks similar to the forge welded one originally on mine, you should be ok. Nice you don't have to go through all the "surgery" mine did. LOL

Now I won't feel like the only one shooting a Torador. LOL

Please keep us posted on your progress - with photos when possible - !! Great project. It does in fact seem that both our Toradors came from the same area. Very cool.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 29th January 2017, 07:16 PM

Rick,

Will indeed keep you posted with progress and photos !

Thank you for your thoughts on the stock and such. It was my first thought to glue the joint, as the stock can move a bit at that point.
Some have solid bands and some twine/wire or leather ties.
This one only had a solid band at muzzle, and some old copper wire over the splice, but it wasn't original.
The stock looks Bad right now!, as when I took the screws out, one little bird and one flower fell out and need putting back.
The 'elephant ' on the underside of the buttstock has only his trunk remaining!, as someone put a large wood -screw where he used to be!
Will plug that old wound (screw split the stock worse than before it was applied) and put a new 'elephant' on the trunk. :-)
Needs a buttplate as half was putty.. Fortunately I have some black water-buffalo horn so that will suffice.

More as and when.
Thanks for comments on Omani thread. will reply soon. :-)

Richard.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd February 2017, 04:33 AM

Just a couple of interesting (to me) details on this one;

I think the owner must have been Hindu. :-)
It is decorated with eleven depictions of the Trisula.
Elgood shows very closely related examples in both "Arms and Armour Of the Jaipur Court" and "Firearms of the Islamic World".

He has the following to say about the Trisula;

"Trisula , from Trident,
Symbol of Siva.
None of the other weapons, -sword, axe, arrow, have a similar ritual significance.
Survivals found from Iron Age burials.
In Greek Tradition, the Trident is the lightning symjbol of Zeus, and this corresponds to the Indian concept of the Vajra / thunderbolt.
Such weapons being invariably missiles.
Indian tridents are held to have great magical power, being capable of overcoming the power of evil."
(Hindu Arms and Ritual, Rb't Elgood.)

Also, the pair of geese/swans on the stock, "Hamsa"
The Hamsa
In Hindu lore, the hamsa (a pair of divine birds) can be either swans or
geese. The two are interchangeable. The word hamsa is a cognate of the Latin anser (goose).
The hamsa lives on Lake Manasarovar in Tibet, from which it migrates to
India in the winter. It is extolled as the king of birds, and said to eat
pearls and be able to separate Soma from water (later milk from water) when the two are mixed.
It trancends creation, because it can fly in the sky, swim in the water, and
walk on the earth. The hamsa represents perfect union, balance and life
(breath and spirit).
In Vedic times, the hamsa was connected with Surya, the sun god. It
signified strength and virility. In the Upanishads, the hamsa acquired more
attributes, symbolizing purity, detachment, divine knowledge, prana (cosmic
breath) and spiritual accomplishment.
The hamsa laid a golden egg on the waters. (This is the same role taken by
the goose in ancient Egypt.) From that egg sprang the god Brahma, the
Creator. In the Upanishads, the hamsa is said to possess the sacred
knowledge of Brahma. Therefore, it symbolizes the elevation of the unformed
toward the Heaven of Knowledge. Brahma is often depicted riding on the hamsa

The hamsa is also used as a symbol of Narayana, an aspect of Vishnu, the
Preserver. In this context, the hamsa is a personification of the soul in
the universe. The flight of the hamsa symbolizes the escape from the cycle
of samsara, rebirth.

Not wanting to read too much into the hamsa on the stock, but I do wonder what which part of the above was significant in the Jaipur court?...., as there are a good few matchlocks surviving (from Jaipur)all with the two birds, (Hamsa) and the trisula.

Not got to the flowers yet, Or the elephant!

Pukka Bundook · 3rd February 2017, 04:50 AM

Please pardon the trisula of posts!. .. :-)

For the sake of clarity, I wanted to keep these photos separate from the last post.
They are of toradors, almost certainly from the Jaipur court, to show more examples of this type. Even down to the badly done engraving and the same pierced trigger!
The last example may be earlier or later, as it has no trisula on the barrel But! It depicts Siva holding a trisula so the same idea is present.

rickystl · 4th February 2017, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Please pardon the trisula of posts!. .. :-)

For the sake of clarity, I wanted to keep these photos separate from the last post.
They are of toradors, almost certainly from the Jaipur court, to show more examples of this type. Even down to the badly done engraving and the same pierced trigger!
The last example may be earlier or later, as it has no trisula on the barrel But! It depicts Siva holding a trisula so the same idea is present.

Hi Richard.

Just noticed something in these last photos you posted. The second photo from the top: Notice the round hole on the right, upper rear of the stock. Similar to the two photos below. One is on my gun, the other from a pic I Googled up. The hole is intentioal. But I have no idea what it was for (?) But I've seen this on others, and it's always on the right side. Any ideas ?

Thanks, Rick.

Pukka Bundook · 4th February 2017, 08:35 PM

Rick,

I am pleased you mentioned the hole in the rear of the breech-block.
I had meant to mention this and kept forgetting it!

It is for snuffing the match.
You will note than none of the arms with this hole have a match -snuffer on the side of the stock.
This is another point that ties all this type together.
It appears All these from Jaipur with the same decoration (or similar) have this match -hole. I must check, but believe it may be unique to Jaipur arms.
(Though not All Jaipur arms)

Very interesting! At least to yourself and myself, lol!

Edited to add;
My matchlock here also has that hole, (Didn't know if you could see it in any photos here)
Also,
Don't worry about the stock! It's well on the way repair -wise. I have photos to attach as soon as I get at it!
The horn for buttplate is from a Red Cylonese water buffalo, so quite apt.

Thanks for the offer of bone, but I have a good supply of old bone from the muskeg here on the farm, all a bit old and stained. Just need a few tiny pieces for missing inlay, though I do not want to replace quite all of it.

More soon Rick!

Richard.
And, edited to add first pics of repair to the stock.
After initial glueing I drilled two holes from the butt end up a few inches past the break, and inserted metal rods . I like to use wood pegs, but in this case the metal rods will add more rigidity.
As you can see, there are great big pieces of wood missing in some areas!
Added Wood pegs where the old screws were as well.
You can see there is not much left of the bottom inlay, just the elephant's trunk! Not sure how this looked originally, as most such emblems look like a ball with a trumpet, and this one had no large circular part adjoining. ...

rickystl · 4th February 2017, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Rick,

Will indeed keep you posted with progress and photos !

Thank you for your thoughts on the stock and such. It was my first thought to glue the joint, as the stock can move a bit at that point.
Some have solid bands and some twine/wire or leather ties.
This one only had a solid band at muzzle, and some old copper wire over the splice, but it wasn't original.
The stock looks Bad right now!, as when I took the screws out, one little bird and one flower fell out and need putting back.
The 'elephant ' on the underside of the buttstock has only his trunk remaining!, as someone put a large wood -screw where he used to be!
Will plug that old wound (screw split the stock worse than before it was applied) and put a new 'elephant' on the trunk. :-)
Needs a buttplate as half was putty.. Fortunately I have some black water-buffalo horn so that will suffice.

More as and when.
Thanks for comments on Omani thread. will reply soon. :-)

Richard.

Hi Richard.

BARREL BANDS: Yes, as you mentioned, I've seen everything used. Brass, iron, rattan, leather, wire, everything. LOL.
BUTT PLATE: Yes, that black water buffalo should work fine.
By the way, if you need any bone to make new inlays, I have some pre-aged , yellowed camel bone from a period Algerain long gun if it helps.

So sorry to hear about the stock. It's frustraiting when you get something someone else tried to crudely repair and didn't know what they were doing.

BUT !! The barrel being cylinder bore is great news !!!!

Rick.

3rd February 2017, 04:50 AM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Please pardon the trisula of posts!. .. :-) For the sake of clarity, I wanted to keep these photos separate from the last post. They are of toradors, almost certainly from the Jaipur court, to show more examples of this type. Even down to the badly done engraving and the same pierced trigger! The last example may be earlier or later, as it has no trisula on the barrel But! It depicts Siva holding a trisula so the same idea is present. Attached Images

4th February 2017, 08:35 PM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, I am pleased you mentioned the hole in the rear of the breech-block. I had meant to mention this and kept forgetting it! It is for snuffing the match. You will note than none of the arms with this hole have a match -snuffer on the side of the stock. This is another point that ties all this type together. It appears All these from Jaipur with the same decoration (or similar) have this match -hole. I must check, but believe it may be unique to Jaipur arms. (Though not All Jaipur arms) Very interesting! At least to yourself and myself, lol! Edited to add; My matchlock here also has that hole, (Didn't know if you could see it in any photos here) Also, Don't worry about the stock! It's well on the way repair -wise. I have photos to attach as soon as I get at it! The horn for buttplate is from a Red Cylonese water buffalo, so quite apt. Thanks for the offer of bone, but I have a good supply of old bone from the muskeg here on the farm, all a bit old and stained. Just need a few tiny pieces for missing inlay, though I do not want to replace quite all of it. More soon Rick! Richard. And, edited to add first pics of repair to the stock. After initial glueing I drilled two holes from the butt end up a few inches past the break, and inserted metal rods . I like to use wood pegs, but in this case the metal rods will add more rigidity. As you can see, there are great big pieces of wood missing in some areas! Added Wood pegs where the old screws were as well. You can see there is not much left of the bottom inlay, just the elephant's trunk! Not sure how this looked originally, as most such emblems look like a ball with a trumpet, and this one had no large circular part adjoining. ... Attached Images Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 5th February 2017 at 02:52 PM.

28th January 2017, 08:46 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Pardon for bringing up an old thread, but I have recently received this torador, though purchased last year! The reason for bringing this to light again, is to enquire about a couple of things; The stock , as in many Indian toradors, is joined in the fore-end. This makes it a two-piece stock. Should both halves be glued together when I have the other repairs completed?...or, did they rely on bands or bindings to hold the foremost part snugly in place? I have the buttstock glued back together through the bade break, but as the screws holding the parts together were not tight and the parts could fridge a little, there will be some further 'skin grafts' needed. The bore is Very good, so will make a shooter when all repaired, And, there is no large breech cavity as we so often find on these arms! The last inch is slightly tighter than the rest of the bore, so Much easier to work with. Will show photos of this in another thread. Any further guidance /advice much appreciated. Richard.

29th January 2017, 05:07 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Richard. Glad to hear the Torador is finally in your hands. It's a nice one. STOCK: I have held two Toradors with that V shaped join in the fore stock. Yes, many seem to have been made this way. The join seemed to be about mid-way in the fore stock. One had a decorative, re-inforcing type band where the two stock pieces met, with two barrel bands around the barrel at that point. And the other specimen just had two barrel bands next to each other right where the two pieces of the stock met. I don't recall any evidence of glue. So I think the two pieces were held together as you mention above. That said, as long as I was doing the other stock repairs, and I intended on shooting it, I would probably have that join glued together. It would add strength to the forearm wood. Would probably eliminate any future "wobble" in the forestock. Just my thoughts. BARREL: That is really good news !!!!! That slightly narrow one inch area will mostly be filled with powder anyway. Should not be a problem loading and cleaning. But do double-check the breech plug area. But if it looks similar to the forge welded one originally on mine, you should be ok. Nice you don't have to go through all the "surgery" mine did. LOL Now I won't feel like the only one shooting a Torador. LOL Please keep us posted on your progress - with photos when possible - !! Great project. It does in fact seem that both our Toradors came from the same area. Very cool. Rick

29th January 2017, 07:16 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Rick, Will indeed keep you posted with progress and photos ! Thank you for your thoughts on the stock and such. It was my first thought to glue the joint, as the stock can move a bit at that point. Some have solid bands and some twine/wire or leather ties. This one only had a solid band at muzzle, and some old copper wire over the splice, but it wasn't original. The stock looks Bad right now!, as when I took the screws out, one little bird and one flower fell out and need putting back. The 'elephant ' on the underside of the buttstock has only his trunk remaining!, as someone put a large wood -screw where he used to be! Will plug that old wound (screw split the stock worse than before it was applied) and put a new 'elephant' on the trunk. :-) Needs a buttplate as half was putty.. Fortunately I have some black water-buffalo horn so that will suffice. More as and when. Thanks for comments on Omani thread. will reply soon. :-) Richard.

3rd February 2017, 04:33 AM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Just a couple of interesting (to me) details on this one; I think the owner must have been Hindu. :-) It is decorated with eleven depictions of the Trisula. Elgood shows very closely related examples in both "Arms and Armour Of the Jaipur Court" and "Firearms of the Islamic World". He has the following to say about the Trisula; "Trisula , from Trident, Symbol of Siva. None of the other weapons, -sword, axe, arrow, have a similar ritual significance. Survivals found from Iron Age burials. In Greek Tradition, the Trident is the lightning symjbol of Zeus, and this corresponds to the Indian concept of the Vajra / thunderbolt. Such weapons being invariably missiles. Indian tridents are held to have great magical power, being capable of overcoming the power of evil." (Hindu Arms and Ritual, Rb't Elgood.) Also, the pair of geese/swans on the stock, "Hamsa" The Hamsa In Hindu lore, the hamsa (a pair of divine birds) can be either swans or geese. The two are interchangeable. The word hamsa is a cognate of the Latin anser (goose). The hamsa lives on Lake Manasarovar in Tibet, from which it migrates to India in the winter. It is extolled as the king of birds, and said to eat pearls and be able to separate Soma from water (later milk from water) when the two are mixed. It trancends creation, because it can fly in the sky, swim in the water, and walk on the earth. The hamsa represents perfect union, balance and life (breath and spirit). In Vedic times, the hamsa was connected with Surya, the sun god. It signified strength and virility. In the Upanishads, the hamsa acquired more attributes, symbolizing purity, detachment, divine knowledge, prana (cosmic breath) and spiritual accomplishment. The hamsa laid a golden egg on the waters. (This is the same role taken by the goose in ancient Egypt.) From that egg sprang the god Brahma, the Creator. In the Upanishads, the hamsa is said to possess the sacred knowledge of Brahma. Therefore, it symbolizes the elevation of the unformed toward the Heaven of Knowledge. Brahma is often depicted riding on the hamsa The hamsa is also used as a symbol of Narayana, an aspect of Vishnu, the Preserver. In this context, the hamsa is a personification of the soul in the universe. The flight of the hamsa symbolizes the escape from the cycle of samsara, rebirth. Not wanting to read too much into the hamsa on the stock, but I do wonder what which part of the above was significant in the Jaipur court?...., as there are a good few matchlocks surviving (from Jaipur)all with the two birds, (Hamsa) and the trisula. Not got to the flowers yet, Or the elephant!