The flowers on the tulwar hilts

Jens Nordlunde · 24th January 2017, 09:38 PM

Very good Jim, and to each of the collectors who is willing to show pictures - please comment each picture in your own words.
It is nice to see pictures, but if they are not commented, part of it is missed.

Pukka Bundook · 25th January 2017, 03:28 PM

Very well put together Jim, and I can tell you have spent a great deal on time on this reply!
Jens,
This is such a deep subject, and time has been too short to comment in depth. No, it is not that I know much, (!) but a comment or two without much thought would not be helpful either, so I have refrained.
I do however find this topic very interesting, and too much of the culture and history of Indian arms has remained in a very murky state for far too long.
It is a long time since we discussed this subject ourselves, and I do want to get back to it. My problem at present is life is rife with "must do now" type things that I unfortunately cannot put off.
Hopefully things will soon settle down, so I can draw up my chair and collect my thoughts and join in !!

Very best,
Richard.

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2017, 04:33 PM

Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!!

All best wishes
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 25th January 2017, 04:50 PM

Ibrahim,
Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do.
Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there.

Jim,
I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer.

Richard,
Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on.

I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it.
When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th January 2017, 08:44 PM

Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif!

which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs.
I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here..

Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download...

I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library.

Regards,
Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

Jens Nordlunde · 27th January 2017, 04:02 PM

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th January 2017, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ibrahim,
Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

Thank you but that is the web page I have been drumming on for weeks trying to break into it so I can place its details on Library...even though it is 11 pages. ..I cannot download it ..though I have it cornered and try all the time to access I just cannot crack it... Anyone who can get into it please simply copy to Library...on this thread.

Jens Nordlunde · 29th January 2017, 01:02 PM

Ibrahiim,
Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?

24th January 2017, 09:38 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Very good Jim, and to each of the collectors who is willing to show pictures - please comment each picture in your own words. It is nice to see pictures, but if they are not commented, part of it is missed.

25th January 2017, 03:28 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Very well put together Jim, and I can tell you have spent a great deal on time on this reply! Jens, This is such a deep subject, and time has been too short to comment in depth. No, it is not that I know much, (!) but a comment or two without much thought would not be helpful either, so I have refrained. I do however find this topic very interesting, and too much of the culture and history of Indian arms has remained in a very murky state for far too long. It is a long time since we discussed this subject ourselves, and I do want to get back to it. My problem at present is life is rife with "must do now" type things that I unfortunately cannot put off. Hopefully things will soon settle down, so I can draw up my chair and collect my thoughts and join in !! Very best, Richard.

25th January 2017, 04:33 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,601	Thank you so much Richard!!! and its fantastic to have you here on this, as you note, very complicated topic. You have been steadily with us over these years of study, and your contributions to our learning have been outstanding. Really looking forward to your joining us on this!!! All best wishes Jim

25th January 2017, 04:50 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahim, Yes you are right, this rally is a very complex subject, with few conclusions, but a lot of guessing, as that is mostly what we can do. Maybe we should try to take an interest in what Markel writes, and also start to study Indian jewellery, as part of the answer may lay there. Jim, I know you use hours with your books when you take an interest in a subject, and the members benefit from your studies very much. I think you have a very good point in turning to other sources, as the development of the decoration may be in a place, where weapon collectors seldom look for an answer. Richard, Yes it is years ago since we discussed the subject, and I have done little to research it since then, as I have had other researches going on. I have come to the conclusion, that I am not going to survive my research list, so to speed the research up a bit I will ask the members to start their own research, and tell us about it. When showing a picture of a decoration, please tell what you have learned from looking at it, or what you have read about it, how old it is, and where it was used - north or south.

25th January 2017, 08:44 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Jim, Brilliant post and clearly there are hours of research behind this detailed response...I had to look up Leitmotif! which it states is a recurrent theme throughout a musical or literary composition, associated with a particular person, idea, or situation. Thus I see clearly its use on this decorative form as being present in the orchestra of decoration on everything Indian. I was looking through two decades old Sothebys catalogs and discovered the floral spread on Indian Carpets and even on the fittings on Hookah pipes. Indian Architecture is of course awash with such splendid decoration. It stands to reason that Indian Arms and Armour is laced with the complex floral designs. I hope someone can provide the details I requested earlier but I will make the request again here.. Does anyone have a copy of Stephan Markels , "Use of Flora and Fauna Imagery in Mughal Decorative Arts" It would be useful to have this document transferred here for library purposes. I cannot get it to download... I believe this will create the foundation framework so that we can get closer to the answer. Clearly Jim has provided huge clues from this document so that having the whole thesis to hand may well be a bonus to Library. Regards, Ibrahiim Al Balooshi.

27th January 2017, 04:02 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahim, Here you can find it https://lacma.academia.edu/StephenMarkel

29th January 2017, 01:02 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ibrahiim, Have you read the rules for downloading files from their homepage?