Recently Acquired Espada Ancha for Comment

drac2k · 16th January 2017, 01:16 AM

What a beauty and a great sword.Do you think the scabbard is newer than the sword ?

Belizechopper · 16th January 2017, 03:08 AM

The Cutlass style espada in the bottom of third photo is I believe a mid 19th century type more Caribbean than Mexican and some I have seen utilize Fedderson, Willink Co. blades while all use blades similar to US m1860. It is good to see another example of a bone grip with the forward quillions also. They are very unusual. Espada anchas are hard to date as parts were reused for years with newer hilts or blades. I believe the best dating can be accomplished by the blade type. The standard blacksmith made sash langet with flat blade and upturned foible commonly dated 1740 to 1780 possibly styled after Spanish Dragoon sabers ca. 1750 with straight forte and upturned foible but if so would move start date 10 years. The San Louis Potosi styles typically utilize the straighter shorter blades associated with early 19th. These are most facinating swords and can be grouped into very specific styles even if unique to them selves. The round tangs with finger loops seem to come up more in South American context than Mexico or Northern provinces.

kronckew · 16th January 2017, 08:28 AM

my sword's scabbard is in excellent condition, one of the narrow fringes has broken in half, the leather was fairly dry and the bringe a bit cracking and brittle until i oiled it, now reasonably flexible. i have a few early 20th/late 19th c. leather scabbards in as good condition. my spanish american war spanish recurved 1895 artillery sword scabbard is in similar condition. i do not know if the scabbard was made/issued like that or if it is a later replacement. it does fit the blade exactly like it was made for it and has some age. the sword had some surface rust and i brass wire brushed it & treated it with tannic.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2017, 07:26 PM

Eric,
Welcome to the forum! and it is great to see another who is fascinated with these remarkable colonial arms. You show some amazing examples, and I would like to know more on your thoughts on regional aspects of the styles.

The curious birds head (?) or serpentine zoomorphic on the knuckleguard, is this in your opinion more to the southern regions and Central or South American? It seems these occur on the striated shell guard examples which we have tentatively considered South American in a number of cases.

The Potosi style hilts are it seems distinctive with the turned down, bird head type pommel (Adams, 1985 I think notes these as Potosi). I have found one of these in Santa Fe, N.M. with heavy blacksmith style, wedge type blade. Naturally that does not secure actual provenance as there are no boundaries to diffusion over years.

Another interesting feature of the heavy colonial blades, is the curious uptick at the point on it seems a good number of them.

Best regards
Jim

Belizechopper · 17th January 2017, 02:21 AM

Jim, most that I know or rather think other than what few articles written I have read is pure speculation and opinion. The espada with the bird head in the pommel end of the Potosi style saber is a very interesting piece. The hilt is bigger than most as so many have grips for a small hand. It is my opinion that all of the ornate or better made swords come from the southern States of Mexico. This one was found in Queretaro, Mexico but as you said that really does not mean much. I have found the Potosi style in south west US and in California. To me the ones some people call Texas style, the round tangs with stirrup hilts unadorned seem to turn up in the Northern States of Mexico more. Interestingly a couple of my round tangs with the riveted guard bars have hickory grips. Both are in my opinion later swords but possibly old hilt on 1840 to 1870 blade. I also have one with a shorter blacksmith flat blade that I would date earlier. It is my opinion the blacksmith flat blades with deep curve upward started around 1750 or later with the laminated sash langet hilts and get straighter as time goes by untill 1870 to 1880 when the more machete type became popular. The chiseled shell guard with straight blades that look a lot like 1750 British hunting swords like S. Harveys brass model in my opinion are south eastern Spanish controlled US and Caribbean. The round tangs with finger loops are I think south Central American and north South American. My bone grip with the forward quillions was purchased in Mexico City. I am hoping I can learn from you and others on here and will change my opinions as needed. Regards Eric

drac2k · 18th January 2017, 02:29 PM

Your collection is fantastic ! Thanks for posting !

Belizechopper · 29th January 2017, 08:44 PM

Not a true espada ancha but never the less a good example of styles from different regions. I recently picked this up in Quito Ecuador so is a definite South American. Also it is made from I think an Ewald Broking Gevelsberg machete, acero garantizado, Steel guaranteed,. The other key is many times the Spanish backyard made or "espada ancha types" are given earlier dates than they deserve. This one cannot be earlier than 1885 or when Ewald begin in business and infact could be as late as World War II. Very late indeed for this type blacksmith sword. The simple guard style and rolled quillion is consistent with other South American blacksmith swords although I have seen very few confirmed South American.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2017, 04:53 PM

Well observed Eric!!
The thing about these ultra simple ethnographic utilitarian weapons is that the blacksmiths and whatever artisans might put these together, the use and recycling of parts was consistant as might be expected.
As you note, often there is a certain exuberant optimism in the assessment of date on these well worn and little documented weapons.

The blade, as here, with the production period of a known maker being set, clearly illustrates this circumstance. Still, the weapon itself is established as a continuation of the tradition of these durable frontier arms, and there is a charm to these rugged swords regardless of period.

It does seem possible that the hilt may be much older, as this sort of assemblage is also well known with European arms. Many of the swords seen in the Wallace collection have very old hilts placed on newer blades, and the remount simply illustrates the often long working life of many arms. In many cases the older hilts may, just as with blades, be heirloom items which were desired to be kept in use with more serviceable blades.
In the case of these utilitarian swords, it was more that it was easier to use an extant old hilt and replace the blade when availability provided.

16th January 2017, 03:08 AM	#2
Belizechopper Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 10	Bone grip espada ancha with forward quillions The Cutlass style espada in the bottom of third photo is I believe a mid 19th century type more Caribbean than Mexican and some I have seen utilize Fedderson, Willink Co. blades while all use blades similar to US m1860. It is good to see another example of a bone grip with the forward quillions also. They are very unusual. Espada anchas are hard to date as parts were reused for years with newer hilts or blades. I believe the best dating can be accomplished by the blade type. The standard blacksmith made sash langet with flat blade and upturned foible commonly dated 1740 to 1780 possibly styled after Spanish Dragoon sabers ca. 1750 with straight forte and upturned foible but if so would move start date 10 years. The San Louis Potosi styles typically utilize the straighter shorter blades associated with early 19th. These are most facinating swords and can be grouped into very specific styles even if unique to them selves. The round tangs with finger loops seem to come up more in South American context than Mexico or Northern provinces. Attached Images

16th January 2017, 08:28 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,227	my sword's scabbard is in excellent condition, one of the narrow fringes has broken in half, the leather was fairly dry and the bringe a bit cracking and brittle until i oiled it, now reasonably flexible. i have a few early 20th/late 19th c. leather scabbards in as good condition. my spanish american war spanish recurved 1895 artillery sword scabbard is in similar condition. i do not know if the scabbard was made/issued like that or if it is a later replacement. it does fit the blade exactly like it was made for it and has some age. the sword had some surface rust and i brass wire brushed it & treated it with tannic. Last edited by kronckew; 16th January 2017 at 12:46 PM.

17th January 2017, 02:21 AM	#5
Belizechopper Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 10	espada anchas Jim, most that I know or rather think other than what few articles written I have read is pure speculation and opinion. The espada with the bird head in the pommel end of the Potosi style saber is a very interesting piece. The hilt is bigger than most as so many have grips for a small hand. It is my opinion that all of the ornate or better made swords come from the southern States of Mexico. This one was found in Queretaro, Mexico but as you said that really does not mean much. I have found the Potosi style in south west US and in California. To me the ones some people call Texas style, the round tangs with stirrup hilts unadorned seem to turn up in the Northern States of Mexico more. Interestingly a couple of my round tangs with the riveted guard bars have hickory grips. Both are in my opinion later swords but possibly old hilt on 1840 to 1870 blade. I also have one with a shorter blacksmith flat blade that I would date earlier. It is my opinion the blacksmith flat blades with deep curve upward started around 1750 or later with the laminated sash langet hilts and get straighter as time goes by untill 1870 to 1880 when the more machete type became popular. The chiseled shell guard with straight blades that look a lot like 1750 British hunting swords like S. Harveys brass model in my opinion are south eastern Spanish controlled US and Caribbean. The round tangs with finger loops are I think south Central American and north South American. My bone grip with the forward quillions was purchased in Mexico City. I am hoping I can learn from you and others on here and will change my opinions as needed. Regards Eric

29th January 2017, 08:44 PM	#7
Belizechopper Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 10	South American espada Not a true espada ancha but never the less a good example of styles from different regions. I recently picked this up in Quito Ecuador so is a definite South American. Also it is made from I think an Ewald Broking Gevelsberg machete, acero garantizado, Steel guaranteed,. The other key is many times the Spanish backyard made or "espada ancha types" are given earlier dates than they deserve. This one cannot be earlier than 1885 or when Ewald begin in business and infact could be as late as World War II. Very late indeed for this type blacksmith sword. The simple guard style and rolled quillion is consistent with other South American blacksmith swords although I have seen very few confirmed South American. Attached Images

16th January 2017, 01:16 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,260	What a beauty and a great sword.Do you think the scabbard is newer than the sword ?

16th January 2017, 07:26 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Eric, Welcome to the forum! and it is great to see another who is fascinated with these remarkable colonial arms. You show some amazing examples, and I would like to know more on your thoughts on regional aspects of the styles. The curious birds head (?) or serpentine zoomorphic on the knuckleguard, is this in your opinion more to the southern regions and Central or South American? It seems these occur on the striated shell guard examples which we have tentatively considered South American in a number of cases. The Potosi style hilts are it seems distinctive with the turned down, bird head type pommel (Adams, 1985 I think notes these as Potosi). I have found one of these in Santa Fe, N.M. with heavy blacksmith style, wedge type blade. Naturally that does not secure actual provenance as there are no boundaries to diffusion over years. Another interesting feature of the heavy colonial blades, is the curious uptick at the point on it seems a good number of them. Best regards Jim

18th January 2017, 02:29 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,260	Your collection is fantastic ! Thanks for posting !

30th January 2017, 04:53 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,297	Well observed Eric!! The thing about these ultra simple ethnographic utilitarian weapons is that the blacksmiths and whatever artisans might put these together, the use and recycling of parts was consistant as might be expected. As you note, often there is a certain exuberant optimism in the assessment of date on these well worn and little documented weapons. The blade, as here, with the production period of a known maker being set, clearly illustrates this circumstance. Still, the weapon itself is established as a continuation of the tradition of these durable frontier arms, and there is a charm to these rugged swords regardless of period. It does seem possible that the hilt may be much older, as this sort of assemblage is also well known with European arms. Many of the swords seen in the Wallace collection have very old hilts placed on newer blades, and the remount simply illustrates the often long working life of many arms. In many cases the older hilts may, just as with blades, be heirloom items which were desired to be kept in use with more serviceable blades. In the case of these utilitarian swords, it was more that it was easier to use an extant old hilt and replace the blade when availability provided.