F. de Luzon's Moro Kris Collection

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Kai,

would be the first time that I see tortoise on such a scabbard, do you have an example you can show?

Best regards,
Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Hi Detlef,

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hi F. de Luzon,

yes agree, the plate on the small picture seems to be indeed from turtle shell. The other picture isn't clear enough to build me an opinion.

Regards,
Detlef

[Robert]

Thank you! Here are some samples of krises with sea turtle shell (as far as I was told) on the scabbard and pommel. I saw them as I was "hunting" for pieces for my collection.

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello F. de Luzon, Though the smaller photo in post #24 shows what looks like decorative hawksbill turtle shell plates on the scabbard without being able to see these in person it would be almost impossible to tell if they are real, or faux turtle shell made from bull or buffalo horn or even plastic. All of these materials should be readily available in the Philippines. I would be leary about spending the money usually associated with items made from genuine turtle shell without having it checked by an expert first. I believe that hawksbill are a protected species so if you purchase anything made from their shell (if it is even legal to own there) it would most likely be illegal to export.

Best,
Robert

That is very sound advice Robert. I inquired about the legality of the use of turtle shells from the shop owner and was told that the ones on sale were made in the 1940s-1950s, when it was still legal in the Philippines. Today, it is illegal to use them but the antiques can still be sold.

Now, in light of your comment, I just realized that it may be impossible to distinguish old from new (at least based on pictures). It would thus be most prudent to avoid them to discourage the sale of products made of turtle parts, as well as to avoid the risk of violating the law.

I'm relieved that the inlaid crosspiece on the scabbard that I purchased turned out to be made of horn. Thanks again for your advice. I am taking it very seriously.

F. de Luzon

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

It would thus be most prudent to avoid them to discourage the sale of products made of turtle parts, as well as to avoid the risk violating the law.

I know that sea turtles get hunted still in Indonesia, of course it's forbidden by law but there is no control. I've seen not long ago on Bali sate from sea turtle on a market and on Halmahera I've seen a lot of sea turtle carapaces, when I told the people that it is forbidden to hunt them they were very surprised.

[Spunjer]

welcome, F.!
you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting!
my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name).
it's all nice to see a new collector!

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

welcome, F.!
you have a beautiful collection! i can't add anything else as to what everyone said. all i can say is, happy hunting!
my very first piece came from Davao. i acquired it when i was there. i did stop at some of the antique stores in MM. favorite was Mang Ven's in Ermita. did find some at one of the bigger malls (can't remember the name).
it's all nice to see a new collector!

Thanks for the warm welcome and for appreciating my modest collection, Spunjer! Davao and Metro Manila have been my hunting grounds as well. Mang Ven's is also my favorite place. He's a nice guy, very accommodating with lots of interesting stories to tell. I saw your post on the very impressive Maranao blade. I hope to get as lucky as you one day.

F. de Luzon

[F. de Luzon]

I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern.

Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy.

I agree. I have worked with kamagong before as well as narra and paduk (a cousin to narra) and these are not only dense, but they dull steel edges and tools (they have dulled mine for example). I usually see kamagong reserved for Moro hilts.

[kai]

I etched #4 and had a new scabbard made. The wood is Kamagong (also called Mabolo), a variety of ebony endemic to the Philippines. It is a highly esteemed wood but I have never seen it on an antique Moro scabbard before. Probably, the reason is because it is dense and heavy. While based on traditional Moro design, the scabbard is in the style of the makers (well known blacksmiths from the Province of Pangasinan) and thus modern.

Nice wood for sure!

IMVHO it may pay to "educate" them on traditional designs for such custom projects. Even if one prefers to keep the additional carving on the crosspiece, it would look much nicer if the base of the crosspiece was flush with the stem (at least in my book - sorry, I'm a stiffler for tradition, I guess ).

Here are some pictures showing the condition of the kris at the time of purchase, after initial restoration and finally, after etching. I think it turned out nicely.

Wow, I'm glad that you rescued this kris - the blade did came out very nice!

Could you add some close-ups of the blade for getting a better glimpse on the laminations, please?

Regards,
Kai

[BANDOOK]

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh

[BANDOOK]

Overall length -68 cms

[Battara]

I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example.

MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

[BANDOOK]

Thanks Battara
Its good to know that,i don't collect these weapons so good for my knowledge
Regards Rajesh

[Ian]

Agree with Jose's dating for the same reasons he gives. The kris shown by VANDOO is a mid- to late-20th C. example in Sulu dress. These are readily found in antique shops in Manila or online. Although well made and from the original culture, I suspect they are produced mainly for sale to foreigners who travel.

Ian.

Originally Posted by Battara

I'm not sure I agree with the information regarding this example.

MOP was not common until the 20th century. Also this form is a 20th century form, not a 19th century form. And then, this type of kris is made in the Sulu region and not Mindanao.

[Battara]

Ian is right. I will only add that some of these recent Sulu examples may be even laminated on occasion. I know this because I bought one years ago and it was laminated. Admittedly, that was probably made in the 1960s. Pieces coming out of the region today are more often mono-steel.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by BANDOOK

Here is another example which does not belong to me,but thought would share it for discussion
regards Rajesh

Thanks for sharing, Rajesh!

[Victrix]

This book may be of interest to the historically inclined amongst you.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Victrix

This book may be of interest to the historically inclined amongst you.

Thanks Vitrix! Antonio de Morga's "Sucesos..." is one of the popular primary sources on the early Spanish era here in the Philippines. The annotated version by the Philippine national hero, Jose Rizal is even a school reading for some students. Is that your personal copy?

Kind regards,

Fernando

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Thanks Vitrix! Antonio de Morga's "Sucesos..." is one of the popular primary sources on the early Spanish era here in the Philippines. The annotated version by the Philippine national hero, Jose Rizal is even a school reading for some students. Is that your personal copy?

Kind regards,

Fernando

Si Senjor!

I found a copy in a bookstore by chance and selected it for my early summer reading, which I'm looking forward to. It's translated into English and edited by a J. S. Cummins and was published for the Hakluyt Society (1971). I'm glad to hear it's included as a school reading for students in Philippines.

All the best.