Zanzibari (?) Saif for Comment

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by TVV

Ibrahim, I am afraid that I am among many here that do not share your belief that the conical hilt Omani saifs were not battle swords. Here is a photo of German trophies from the Arab uprising in 1888. It is interesting in that apart from the daggers, there is a variety of swords: to the left you can clearly see an Omani saif, and there is also a Zanzibari hilted sword, along with a saif from the Hadramaut and finally, there also appears to be a shamshir, but it is hard to see. Tippu Tip's famous photo also has him wearing an Omani saif.

Teodor

What is present in your excellent exhibit are some weapons and a dancing sword...It should be noted that even as late as about 1955 tribals turned up to a fight (The Buraimi Oasis Confrontation) with several weapons Martini Henry swords khanjars spears...but one of them was a non weapon. The Dancing sword; which was primarily for pageant...parading past the ruler...buzzing in the air ...and for the mock fight which was a single point competition where exponents tried to touch the opponents thumb(on the shield hand) with the flat spatulate sword tip. Other occasions are both Eid celebrations and weddings and occasions that VIP are present. Normally these swords were cheaply produced for the masses however, horses for courses, some were quite ornate displaying a certain wealth and position of the owner. The sword used in combat was primarily the Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani that became so famous it was given an Iconographic hilt identical to the Hilt on the Royal Khanjar. The dancer was graced with both edges razor sharp which was a spin off from the Sayf Yamaani..as was the rounded tip...and the Terrs Shield...but with a very thin flexible blade which could bend double unlike the Sayf Yamaani which was stiff...and used for hacking.

The main point is that the features of the Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani were deliberately included in the design of the dancing sword but that its role was as a pageantry sword carried by soldiers, tribal infantry and civilians alike but only for pageants...many of which are currently played out in a traditional dance form called The Funoon.

Tippu Tip had many swords...mainly the dancing variety. He was massively wealthy being virtually governor of most of Central Africa where he was supreme merchant of slavery and Ivory.

[Jim McDougall]

With the sabre in the original post here, it seems apparent that while it is in the form of the traditional type sa'if, even with an original grip and sturdy old blade. However, the sword has been refurbished in modern times with far substandard thin brass mounts, and seems clearly to have been intended as a representative weapon for use perhaps in parade or some sort of ceremonial wear.
Although the original elements may certainly have been 'combative', it is unlikely that in its present state the sword would be intended for same.

In collecting regulation military swords, I recall in the case of British swords, particularly infantry and often cavalry, the officers would often have swords which were intended for combat regarded as 'fighting swords'. They would typically not carry their decorative and embellished parade, dress or levee swords into battle. I recall certain patterns such as the 1796 infantry officers dress pattern which resembles the small sword hilt, and officers were apparently taking them into campaign in the Peninsula...to their dismay, and declared them the worst sword ever for battle.

With the Omani sa'if (often called kattara), while mounted with European blades of serviceable heft, these were worn as status accoutrements often finely embellished with silver repousse and fine decoration. The merchants and slavers wearing these were not with combat forces nor involved in such conditions. As seen in Zanzibar by Burton, a swordsman, who agreed with Demmin, 'how could these be wielded in combat?'.

Which brings to mind more on the open, unguarded hilt. While it appears conical, it is actually flattened much in the manner of the hilt of the khanjhar, a handsome dagger worn as a status symbol in Arabia but which could certainly have been used defensively in a singular situation . But would these have been used as an attack weapon in combat, unlikely I think.
This even more so as the modern versions are beautiful in hilt and decoration, but the blades are two pieces of thin steel melded together.

The Hadhramati sa'if as seen in the grouping of arms taken in 1888 is again, a dress weapon worn in similar manner, as many of these repousse embellished swords of these regions. These hilts would be hard to hold in battle, at least the ones I have handled in my opinion.

The point is that to me it seems that whether a weapon is judged as intended as a combat arm, or a dress accoutrement, a parade item or accessory or otherwise, must be done by individual merit. Weapons similar in form may have the character of combat weapons visually, but not be substantial enough for actual use.

[ariel]

I still have difficulty to believe that 19 century Omanis, a definitely not rich people, had separate swords for battle and for dancing. Why couldn't they dance with their battle swords, a distinctly non-traumatic ( for the blade) activity?
Sword dances were ubiquitous in many societies ( Turks, Caucasians, Cossacks) . Nowhere were special "dancing swords" present.

Regulation European swords is a different kettle of fish: various patterns were designed for different uniforms, and this was dictated by the rank. Simple soldiers ( in a crude way approximate to tribal warriors) had one sword only, if that.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

I still have difficulty to believe that 19 century Omanis, a definitely not rich people, had separate swords for battle and for dancing. Why couldn't they dance with their battle swords, a distinctly non-traumatic ( for the blade) activity?
Sword dances were ubiquitous in many societies ( Turks, Caucasians, Cossacks) . Nowhere were special "dancing swords" present.

Regulation European swords is a different kettle of fish: various patterns were designed for different uniforms, and this was dictated by the rank. Simple soldiers ( in a crude way approximate to tribal warriors) had one sword only, if that.

I see what Ariel is saying here, and he makes a very good point. It is well noted that dances involving swords were certainly present in many cultures and nationalities, and it does beg the question, 'why a separate sword to accommodate a particular ceremony?'.

Actually, at the outset of these types of rituals brandishing swords they probably were once part of either a kind of hyping up psychologically prior to battle or in many cases, traditional recalling of great battles and heritage in same. In the former, of course actual battle weapons were likely used where in the latter case, often in more modern times swords had become traditional accoutrements rather than serviceable weapons. These typcally of course took the place of the older, actual combat arms.
In todays Highland sword dance, the traditional basket hilts are simply made in the style of the old forms, but certainly not battle swords.

If I recall correctly from the many discussions we have had on this topic, the traditional pageantry known as the Funoon involves a sword ceremony where these distinctly Omani style conical hilted weapons are used.
The desired effects of many swordsmen in an impressive drill in unison calls for not only the flashing of highly polished blades, but the vibrato whirring sound of these very flexible blades held and purposely shaken for that sound. The aperture in the pommels of these were probably for colorful festoons as well as wrist attachment.

The average Omani would not only have not had battle swords, but not the dance swords either, in fact would not have had weapons at all in most cases other than perhaps heirlooms or a dagger.
These dance swords were produced specifically for these events at some point in the 18th century as the al Bussaidi dynasty developed not only celebratory regalia but promoted spectacular traditional events.

The style of these swords heralded the familiar highly embellished hilts of the swaggering merchants and persons of notoriety, which indeed were held in high esteem and part of the ruling and powerful elite. Their swords were however, most often fitted with high quality blades from many sources as well as heirloom and presentation instances. The dance versions of their swords were simply made in recognition of these familiar swords but with blades purposed for effect rather than combative use.

The well known battle swords of their own distinct form with the 'winged' guard, but cylindrical hilt and peaked dome pommel, were primarily from the interior of Oman, Nizwa, where the Ibathi's did maintain armed forces.
The Omani coastal regions, Muscat, were focused primarily on trade and commercial diplomacy.

Regarding the European regulation sword analogy, the idea was simply to illustrate that swords of specific form were often for dress, while more suitable and sturdier examples used by the same officer for battle. As officers not only could afford such selection, they were also given the latitude to do so.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I see what Ariel is saying here, and he makes a very good point. It is well noted that dances involving swords were certainly present in many cultures and nationalities, and it does beg the question, 'why a separate sword to accommodate a particular ceremony?'.

Actually, at the outset of these types of rituals brandishing swords they probably were once part of either a kind of hyping up psychologically prior to battle or in many cases, traditional recalling of great battles and heritage in same. In the former, of course actual battle weapons were likely used where in the latter case, often in more modern times swords had become traditional accoutrements rather than serviceable weapons. These typcally of course took the place of the older, actual combat arms.
In todays Highland sword dance, the traditional basket hilts are simply made in the style of the old forms, but certainly not battle swords.

If I recall correctly from the many discussions we have had on this topic, the traditional pageantry known as the Funoon involves a sword ceremony where these distinctly Omani style conical hilted weapons are used.
The desired effects of many swordsmen in an impressive drill in unison calls for not only the flashing of highly polished blades, but the vibrato whirring sound of these very flexible blades held and purposely shaken for that sound. The aperture in the pommels of these were probably for colorful festoons as well as wrist attachment.

The average Omani would not only have not had battle swords, but not the dance swords either, in fact would not have had weapons at all in most cases other than perhaps heirlooms or a dagger.
These dance swords were produced specifically for these events at some point in the 18th century as the al Bussaidi dynasty developed not only celebratory regalia but promoted spectacular traditional events.

The style of these swords heralded the familiar highly embellished hilts of the swaggering merchants and persons of notoriety, which indeed were held in high esteem and part of the ruling and powerful elite. Their swords were however, most often fitted with high quality blades from many sources as well as heirloom and presentation instances. The dance versions of their swords were simply made in recognition of these familiar swords but with blades purposed for effect rather than combative use.

The well known battle swords of their own distinct form with the 'winged' guard, but cylindrical hilt and peaked dome pommel, were primarily from the interior of Oman, Nizwa, where the Ibathi's did maintain armed forces.
The Omani coastal regions, Muscat, were focused primarily on trade and commercial diplomacy.

Regarding the European regulation sword analogy, the idea was simply to illustrate that swords of specific form were often for dress, while more suitable and sturdier examples used by the same officer for battle. As officers not only could afford such selection, they were also given the latitude to do so.

Perfectly explained Jim to which I would add; A huge production campaign was needed to get the nation behind the Sultan and expensive battle swords being out of the question people turned to a cheap but effective model.. The Dancing Sword. This was done mainly in the reign of The Sultan of Zanzibar or Saaid The Great. It is the reason that the Omani contingent carried these swords...The Mangas of Zanzibar. The net effect however was to feed back to Oman proper the habit of using this as the Pageantry Sword..Essentially it can be used in a number of distinct areas..
1. Religious ...At both Eids.
2. Social Events....At Weddings.
3. Political gatherings...Nothing is so rousing as thousands of tribals shimmering these swords in appreciation of a leader..or VIP.
4. Salutations to the ruler...All tribal infantry / Soldiers in the Sultans guards carried these as saluting or marching past the Ruler in salute. It was a very common occurrence.
5. Tradition. To enact a large section of dances from the Funoon...This was how information was passed down the ages as people could not read or write... The Traditions are a backbone component of music, poetry and dance in a specific style of Omani history story telling.

Essentially why this sword happened was because of the drive behind it as a saluting sword in honour of The Sultan.( Saiid The Great) It was never intended as a fighting weapon. Basically for the masses it was generally a cheap saluting accoutrement. And it still is.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I still have difficulty to believe that 19 century Omanis, a definitely not rich people, had separate swords for battle and for dancing. Why couldn't they dance with their battle swords, a distinctly non-traumatic ( for the blade) activity?
Sword dances were ubiquitous in many societies ( Turks, Caucasians, Cossacks) . Nowhere were special "dancing swords" present.

Regulation European swords is a different kettle of fish: various patterns were designed for different uniforms, and this was dictated by the rank. Simple soldiers ( in a crude way approximate to tribal warriors) had one sword only, if that.

The Sayf Yamaani was an expensive to produce and very dangerous to throw around at pageants weapon..The Dancing sword however, did inherit components from it like the Terrs Shield...Razor sharp edges ...a flat spatulate tip.....a round tip...It was designed as a non lethal, cheap pageantry sword uniting the masses behind the Sultan.

[ariel]

Well, as Alice would say, curiosier and curiosier...
I hear your points, but I am still puzzled.
Perhaps , in the 19 century Oman was an oasis of tranquility, but the neighboring areas were not. In what is now Saudi Arabia clans clashed all the time, and swords were as embedded in the daily life as kaffiyas. In Yemen, jambiyas are as needed for male attire as pants., and until recently their blades were of fighting quality. Elgood wrote that Hungarian blades were highly prized there in part for their ability to emit sounds during dancing; a hint that dancing was performed with real battle swords.
No Khevsur, Georgian or Zeibek had a special dancing sword, and they danced a lot.

But you must have access to information that is not available to the foreigners...... be it as it may.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Well, as Alice would say, curiosier and curiosier...
I hear your points, but I am still puzzled.
Perhaps , in the 19 century Oman was an oasis of tranquility, but the neighboring areas were not. In what is now Saudi Arabia clans clashed all the time, and swords were as embedded in the daily life as kaffiyas. In Yemen, jambiyas are as needed for male attire as pants., and until recently their blades were of fighting quality. Elgood wrote that Hungarian blades were highly prized there in part for their ability to emit sounds during dancing; a hint that dancing was performed with real battle swords.
No Khevsur, Georgian or Zeibek had a special dancing sword, and they danced a lot.

But you must have access to information that is not available to the foreigners...... be it as it may.

IN THE 19TH C. Oman apart from a very narrow window of prosperity was very poor..No oil in those days...No schools, clinics, hospitals, roads or anything else ...until about 1970.
Black slaves in irons were still obtainable here in Buraimi in 1960.

People somewhat underestimate the situation and tend to sideline the evidence; for example of the Funoon ... I don't blame you however, since it is very much a touch of Alice...In fact the best way to consider the different Genre is as a series of Pantomimes. Education didn't exist..reading and writing was about next to nothing...so the traditions were passed down in Poetry, Dance, Singing and those performances involving the flexible dancing sword. Funoon essentially means The Traditions.

...I indicate above the different functions in which this accoutrement was involved and although some swords were richly adorned in the case of VIPs items its primary use was as explained and it never saw a battle ..except from the viewpoint as waving it in support of the leader..or in its role in the mock fight

When needed Oman had a classic battle Sword... The Sayf Yamaani... plus spears, daggers and the usual fire arms of the day.

[Jim McDougall]

Although it seems that we are digressing from the original post in this thread, a Zanzibar nimcha with very thin brass mounts, the subject of the use of swords in combat vs, in pageantry still remains on point. The examples and instances included by way of analogy are of other forms, but the principle still applies.

The subject of Arabian use and preference of Hungarian blades is well noted, and I have owned and handled Arabian sabers with these blades. While regarded as Hungarian, these blades were typically Solingen or Styrian made (Ostrowski, "The Polish Saber") and the ones I have handled were not particularly flexible, certainly not in the degree required in the Omani dance.
However, I very much agree that actual battle swords were certainly used in dancing or pre combat fervor in very live situations, and probably in a celebratory manner post combat. This of course was probably true in other events using actual battle swords in other nationalities and cultures outside the Omani sphere, in fact I had noted this was likely the origin of the Omani dance. In seems that this performance was altered by producing even more flexible blades in order to enhance the effects desired.

One of the key factors sought in actual combat blades is flexibility, in fact many European blades were tested to see if they could be bent far out of shape and return to original shape . This is essential in blades for combat use as a rigid blade will be subject to breaking in extreme impact and shock.
However, in extremes such as with the Omani dance versions, these blades are flimsy as opposed to flexible, and would be of little use in combat.

What is being confused is the many examples of the conical hilt Omani swords mounted with substantial European and other blades. These were as often explained, worn by individuals of standing and influence in the Omani sphere, particularly merchants and slavers, who were not involved in these performances any more than in any military or combative affairs. These were entirely civil or in effect court type swords despite fully serviceable blades, and very much status oriented, rather than combat ready .

The numbers of these Omani swords produced in more recent times for commercial purposes have further clouded the issue as these have become interpolated with actual earlier examples worn as status symbols in these civil circumstances. It seems these began to circulate around 20 years ago as when I obtained one, they were still rarely seen.