"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2016, 08:02 PM

Please let me have a good, clear close-up of the base of the blade, taken at 90 degrees.

I may or may not be able to give an opinion.

Kulino · 20th December 2016, 08:38 PM

thank you for your trouble

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2016, 08:43 PM

Based upon what I can see in the photos, this is a North Coast Jawa tombak, probably classifiable as Tuban, quality is not as fine as I had thought from the previous photos, the factor that puts it into a lower class being that it is metuk iras.

I am not prepared to take any guesses at age, nor at the design factors.

Kulino · 21st December 2016, 04:44 PM

Dear Alan,
Could you please elaborate on the Mentuk Iras?

David · 21st December 2016, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kulino

Dear Alan,
Could you please elaborate on the Mentuk Iras?

I am sure that Alan will be able to elaborate further, but he is referring to the metuk as being all one piece with the pesi. It was not a piece added on and welded in place.

Kulino · 21st December 2016, 07:39 PM

I understand. The thing is that I have never made the connection between quality and a welded of separate mentuk. I tend to look at the material, the finish and the sound pitch of the metal. Let's here what Alan has to say about this.

A. G. Maisey · 21st December 2016, 10:02 PM

When I say that this tombak is of lower quality because the metuk was carved integrally with the blade, the standard I am using is a Javanese standard:- it is their weapon, their art, their icon:- they make the rules.

Its a bit like the Japanese sword thing:- a person from a different cultural background cannot presume to set the quality rules for Japanese swords; similarly only the Javanese can set the quality rules for Javanese weapons.

But we have a bit of a problem here, because there are tombak that come from other areas of Indonesia where the metuk iras is usual, so obviously those people do not consider metuk iras to be inferior.

On the other hand, Javanese culture is now, has been been for at least 700 years, the dominant culture in Maritime S.E. Asia, a fact that gets a lot of people upset. So the Javanese standards tend to supplant other local standards in many ways.

In the world of tosan aji it seems to me that since the revival of keris culture beginning in the 1970's, and which began in Jawa, Javanese standards and terminology have pretty much replaced whatever understanding of tosan aji existed in other areas in the past.

Thus we have a question:- does a collector of tosan aji who is based in a western culture need to observe Javanese standards, or does he invent his own standards?

My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that if this collector is just a collector of objects he can be perfectly at liberty to adopt whatever standards he wishes. However, if he wants to understand that which he collects then he must adopt the standards of the culture and society from which the object comes. This then becomes a personal choice:- collect things, or understand things? Its up to the individual.

The line of thought that might apply to the distinction between metuk iras and and a separately made metuk is similar to the line of thought that applies to the gonjo of a keris. There are societal and cultural elements involved.

The metuk of a tombak is mechanically fixed in place, not welded.

20th December 2016, 08:38 PM	#2
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	thank you for your trouble Attached Images

20th December 2016, 08:02 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Please let me have a good, clear close-up of the base of the blade, taken at 90 degrees. I may or may not be able to give an opinion.

20th December 2016, 08:43 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Based upon what I can see in the photos, this is a North Coast Jawa tombak, probably classifiable as Tuban, quality is not as fine as I had thought from the previous photos, the factor that puts it into a lower class being that it is metuk iras. I am not prepared to take any guesses at age, nor at the design factors.

21st December 2016, 04:44 PM	#4
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Dear Alan, Could you please elaborate on the Mentuk Iras?

21st December 2016, 07:39 PM	#6
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	I understand. The thing is that I have never made the connection between quality and a welded of separate mentuk. I tend to look at the material, the finish and the sound pitch of the metal. Let's here what Alan has to say about this.

21st December 2016, 10:02 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	When I say that this tombak is of lower quality because the metuk was carved integrally with the blade, the standard I am using is a Javanese standard:- it is their weapon, their art, their icon:- they make the rules. Its a bit like the Japanese sword thing:- a person from a different cultural background cannot presume to set the quality rules for Japanese swords; similarly only the Javanese can set the quality rules for Javanese weapons. But we have a bit of a problem here, because there are tombak that come from other areas of Indonesia where the metuk iras is usual, so obviously those people do not consider metuk iras to be inferior. On the other hand, Javanese culture is now, has been been for at least 700 years, the dominant culture in Maritime S.E. Asia, a fact that gets a lot of people upset. So the Javanese standards tend to supplant other local standards in many ways. In the world of tosan aji it seems to me that since the revival of keris culture beginning in the 1970's, and which began in Jawa, Javanese standards and terminology have pretty much replaced whatever understanding of tosan aji existed in other areas in the past. Thus we have a question:- does a collector of tosan aji who is based in a western culture need to observe Javanese standards, or does he invent his own standards? My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that if this collector is just a collector of objects he can be perfectly at liberty to adopt whatever standards he wishes. However, if he wants to understand that which he collects then he must adopt the standards of the culture and society from which the object comes. This then becomes a personal choice:- collect things, or understand things? Its up to the individual. The line of thought that might apply to the distinction between metuk iras and and a separately made metuk is similar to the line of thought that applies to the gonjo of a keris. There are societal and cultural elements involved. The metuk of a tombak is mechanically fixed in place, not welded.