"Armour Piercing Keris" ???

Timo Nieminen · 17th December 2016, 09:27 PM

I would be very impressed by a keris penetrating a Dutch breastplate. Not just a keris, but any one-handed stabbing weapon. Not so easy to drive a point through approximately 2mm of iron sheet.

A. G. Maisey · 17th December 2016, 09:35 PM

Pretty well established that it did happen Timo, I have no idea at all of what Dutch breast plate is like, but the fact that Brojoguno keris did penetrate them is a part of history.

ariel · 18th December 2016, 03:20 AM

Don't know about keris, but European estocs were actually designed for stabbing through solid steel cuirasses. Even in the 19th century French cavalry was trained to stab rather than slash, and their opponents wore cuirasses ( not all, of course, but quite a lot). So yes, it was possible. And sticking 2-3 inches of steel inside any part of torso was almost guaranteed to be fatal.

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2016, 07:38 AM

Now you mention it Ariel, yes, the cross section of this type of keris --- the Brojoguno style and his copiers --- is something like an estoc.

There is also a tombak that will pierce breast plates, it is the "sajen ampel" form, and it is a distinctly diamond shape cross section.

mariusgmioc · 18th December 2016, 01:03 PM

Very interesting information. Thank you!

Kulino · 19th December 2016, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Now you mention it Ariel, yes, the cross section of this type of keris --- the Brojoguno style and his copiers --- is something like an estoc.

There is also a tombak that will pierce breast plates, it is the "sajen ampel" form, and it is a distinctly diamond shape cross section.

Could this be the tombak you mentioned?

Timo Nieminen · 18th December 2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pretty well established that it did happen Timo, I have no idea at all of what Dutch breast plate is like, but the fact that Brojoguno keris did penetrate them is a part of history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Don't know about keris, but European estocs were actually designed for stabbing through solid steel cuirasses. Even in the 19th century French cavalry was trained to stab rather than slash, and their opponents wore cuirasses ( not all, of course, but quite a lot). So yes, it was possible. And sticking 2-3 inches of steel inside any part of torso was almost guaranteed to be fatal.

Estocs were not designed for stabbing through steel cuirasses. They're designed to stab in the gaps of a plate armour, and to defeat the armour in the gaps (e.g., mail voiders covering the gaps). The problem with breastplates is that they're designed to keep lance points, pike points, arrows, crossbow bolts etc. out, and perhaps bullets.

I suggest an experiment: get some mild steel sheet, 1.5mm thick, and try to stab through it, with whatever one-handed dagger, knife, or sword you wish to try. That mild steel sheet is better quality (but thinner) than the lowest quality iron used to make cheap munition armours, and if the results in Williams, The Knight and the Blast Furnace, section 9, are good, it's about as protective as a cheap and nasty munition breastplate of 2.5mm thickness, or a mediocre breastplate 2mm thick (2-2.5mm thick is typical, for infantry breastplates).

With a close-to-optimal tip for penetration, you can just penetrate (i.e., make a hole all the way through, but only just) that 1.5mm of mild steel with 80J of energy. Make that about 110J if you want to tip to go through far enough to be effective. This isn't easy to achieve, especially if the target is trying to avoid being stabbed. The best possible armour piercing tip doesn't make it easy (or depending on the breastplate, even possible) to pierce thick iron plate.

Given that some armours will be thinner, will have defects, will have thin spots, etc., the best one-handed stabs delivered by humans, hitting square-on, should be able to occasionally go through (not against much-thicker cavalry breastplates, though). But there are some serious problems with trying that and hoping it will work as a fighting strategy. It's much, much easier to go around the breastplate than to go through it. There's plenty that it doesn't cover.

What an "armour-piercing" tip will give you is a tip that will survive hitting a breastplate when you're trying to go around it. It's also a good tip for piercing chainmail (which was used by the VOC), or against armoured-all-over soldiers, piercing the much thinner armour on the limbs.

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2016, 07:28 PM

You make a good argument Timo, but the problem is that Brojoguno keris were witnessed and recorded as having pierced Dutch breast plates.

What sort of Dutch breast plates?

I don't know.

How it was done?

I don't know.

Was the author of the babad (court history) lying?

I don't know.

Was it a political ploy to raise Javanese spirit?

I don't know

Perhaps your modern understanding of the mechanical qualities of material do undermine this piece of recorded history. But again, we have a problem, and that problem is Jawa itself.

If something is believed to have happened, it did happen, and all the logic, reason and modern scientific understanding in the world will not alter that.

Modern logical thought has no place at all in Javanese keris belief systems.

Timo Nieminen · 18th December 2016, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You make a good argument Timo, but the problem is that Brojoguno keris were witnessed and recorded as having pierced Dutch breast plates.

Why is that a problem? As I said,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Given that some armours will be thinner, will have defects, will have thin spots, etc., the best one-handed stabs delivered by humans, hitting square-on, should be able to occasionally go through (not against much-thicker cavalry breastplates, though).

In practice, the average breastplate should be able to resist almost all stabs. But that doesn't mean that all breastplates stop all stabs.

It might be worth seeing what the oldest written sources say, whether they say "breastplate" specifically or just a more general "armour" (with "breastplate" being a later gloss).

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2016, 09:22 PM

Very well Timo, as you wish, its not a problem.

The point I have attempted to make, and have apparently failed to do so, is that reality has no place at all in this discussion.

It is completely irrelevant whether or not a Brojoguno keris could actually make a hole in any Dutch breastplate.

We are talking here about a system of belief:- think in terms of any major religious system of belief, or any culturally accepted system of belief.

In a few days time Santa will come around, and if you are a True Believer, he will fill your stocking with goodies. But if you do not believe --- no goodies for you. But just to be on the safe side make sure your chimney is clear, or you've left a window open.

Timo, we're talking "Keris", we're talking "Javanese Belief", we are not talking about whether one or more breast plates were actually pierced or not. The piercing is totally irrelevant.

What is relevant is that Javanese people who subscribe to the Javanese Keris Belief System believe that Brojoguno Keris could pierce a Dutch breast plate.

Now don't forget, on the night of 24 December, hang a stocking from the mantle piece, or even the foot of your bed, and leave a window open.

Truly believe and Santa will remember you.

17th December 2016, 09:27 PM	#1
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I would be very impressed by a keris penetrating a Dutch breastplate. Not just a keris, but any one-handed stabbing weapon. Not so easy to drive a point through approximately 2mm of iron sheet.

17th December 2016, 09:35 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Pretty well established that it did happen Timo, I have no idea at all of what Dutch breast plate is like, but the fact that Brojoguno keris did penetrate them is a part of history.

18th December 2016, 03:20 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Don't know about keris, but European estocs were actually designed for stabbing through solid steel cuirasses. Even in the 19th century French cavalry was trained to stab rather than slash, and their opponents wore cuirasses ( not all, of course, but quite a lot). So yes, it was possible. And sticking 2-3 inches of steel inside any part of torso was almost guaranteed to be fatal.

18th December 2016, 07:38 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Now you mention it Ariel, yes, the cross section of this type of keris --- the Brojoguno style and his copiers --- is something like an estoc. There is also a tombak that will pierce breast plates, it is the "sajen ampel" form, and it is a distinctly diamond shape cross section.

18th December 2016, 01:03 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Very interesting information. Thank you!

18th December 2016, 07:28 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	You make a good argument Timo, but the problem is that Brojoguno keris were witnessed and recorded as having pierced Dutch breast plates. What sort of Dutch breast plates? I don't know. How it was done? I don't know. Was the author of the babad (court history) lying? I don't know. Was it a political ploy to raise Javanese spirit? I don't know Perhaps your modern understanding of the mechanical qualities of material do undermine this piece of recorded history. But again, we have a problem, and that problem is Jawa itself. If something is believed to have happened, it did happen, and all the logic, reason and modern scientific understanding in the world will not alter that. Modern logical thought has no place at all in Javanese keris belief systems.

18th December 2016, 09:22 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Very well Timo, as you wish, its not a problem. The point I have attempted to make, and have apparently failed to do so, is that reality has no place at all in this discussion. It is completely irrelevant whether or not a Brojoguno keris could actually make a hole in any Dutch breastplate. We are talking here about a system of belief:- think in terms of any major religious system of belief, or any culturally accepted system of belief. In a few days time Santa will come around, and if you are a True Believer, he will fill your stocking with goodies. But if you do not believe --- no goodies for you. But just to be on the safe side make sure your chimney is clear, or you've left a window open. Timo, we're talking "Keris", we're talking "Javanese Belief", we are not talking about whether one or more breast plates were actually pierced or not. The piercing is totally irrelevant. What is relevant is that Javanese people who subscribe to the Javanese Keris Belief System believe that Brojoguno Keris could pierce a Dutch breast plate. Now don't forget, on the night of 24 December, hang a stocking from the mantle piece, or even the foot of your bed, and leave a window open. Truly believe and Santa will remember you.