PBX

David · 8th December 2016, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Who or what is PBX?

Ariel, i think you might find this answer a bit less "occult" than Alan's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakubuwono_X

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2016, 07:52 PM

He was a bit of a cult figure, still is if truth be known.

Really good at two things:- spending money and fathering children.

I've met a number of people who claimed that he was their ancestor, including my housekeeper, whose mother was one of the Karaton dancers.

Here he is:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakubu...r_10001903.jpg

Kulino · 8th December 2016, 09:34 PM

Dear Alan ,
You honour me with the privilege of using your first name. Thank you.
You are right, it is all what you choose to believe in.
Seems to work for me though.
The old ways appear to be on the verge of being lost.
When I asked my teacher if he was sad or sorry that all this knowledge is about to disappear he replied very philosophically, if it is worth something it will survive. If not, it will disappear.
True, but sad. This forum proves that there is still some interest, which is nice. Sharing ideas with you and your comments are a delight. I will post more interesting keris for your consideration.

Njirami could be interpreted as the occasion where the court pusaka would have been cleaned, publicly. I haven’t attended one personally so I can’t report first hand to what extend the used pusaka are clearly visible or how close the public could come to the site. Using private keris during this event would be impossible to me.

If you are into keris kuno, the ones from Madura are a pain. A few years ago I sat with pak Eko, a mranggi, ahli keris in the Yogja area and we discussed these keris, comparing old with new. He expected that in the near future it would be increasingly difficult to tell old from new, even for the experts. From what I see now, he was right. At least for the starting collector. You really have to have had hundreds of keris passing through your hands to tell right from wrong. And even then, there are the ones which make you doubt.

A. G. Maisey · 8th December 2016, 10:16 PM

I feel myself that it is not a matter the value of something that permits it to survive, but rather its relevance, and within a society the relevance of anything varies dependent upon the layer or segment of society that is considered.

In Jawa, if we put a culturally based question, the same question, to people who come from different segments of the society, we will sometimes get very different answers. That which is relevant to a farmer who is still using traditional methods is not at all relevant to somebody who has completed a university degree and wants both himself, and his country to be seen as a part of the "Modern World".

Yes, I do understand the PR displays that the Karatons put on, but once again I do most sincerely suggest that the nature of at least the Surakarta pusakas be given a very close look.

In respect of identification of old keris, one does not need to have handled hundreds of keris. This is very, very far from reality.

One needs to have handled thousands of keris and to have handled a good number of those under the guidance of somebody who truly understands what he is looking at.

How to do this at the present time?

I do not know.

Kulino · 9th December 2016, 10:22 AM

You gave better words to these concepts than I did. Since I'm not a native speaker in English it is always hard to find the correct words or phrases to express the nuances felt. Thank you Alan.
Indeed, over the last fourty years I saw thousands of keris passing through my hands, discussing them with many others, among which many ahli keris both in Europe and on Jawa. This is the only way to learn.
I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cicak, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi, all in combination with sound of the metal, skin, colour, weight, balance and sometimes even the scent. I find this not to be an exact science.
I'm always eager to learn more. Is is appropriate to ask where I can find the criteria Empu Suparman used for his determination?

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2016, 11:56 AM

Those indicators would be useless to you Kulino.

The indicators can be represented by words, certainly, but only the man himself could explain those words, and what they represented to him. Regrettably he left us many years ago.

While we are on the subject of words, may I enquire where you learnt the words you are using:-

"--- I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cecek, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi ---" ?

Kulino · 9th December 2016, 01:17 PM

The words I use, some come from the discussions I had and have with others. Other words come from the long list of literature there is. Such as Kaliwon Pudjangga Kraton Surakarta by R.Ng. Ronggowarsito and other (alleged kraton) manuscripts.
They should indicate features or specific parts of the wingkinan. Like the head or tail of the ganja, the tip or the glow or sound of the metal, etc. Maybe misspelled or misguided in your opinion?

Kulino · 9th December 2016, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Those indicators would be useless to you Kulino.

The indicators can be represented by words, certainly, but only the man himself could explain those words, and what they represented to him. Regrettably he left us many years ago.

While we are on the subject of words, may I enquire where you learnt the words you are using:-

"--- I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cecek, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi ---" ?

Additionally, I recognize in your words, the way I studied the meaning of pamor patterns.

8th December 2016, 09:34 PM	#3
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	Urubing damar variant Dear Alan , You honour me with the privilege of using your first name. Thank you. You are right, it is all what you choose to believe in. Seems to work for me though. The old ways appear to be on the verge of being lost. When I asked my teacher if he was sad or sorry that all this knowledge is about to disappear he replied very philosophically, if it is worth something it will survive. If not, it will disappear. True, but sad. This forum proves that there is still some interest, which is nice. Sharing ideas with you and your comments are a delight. I will post more interesting keris for your consideration. Njirami could be interpreted as the occasion where the court pusaka would have been cleaned, publicly. I haven’t attended one personally so I can’t report first hand to what extend the used pusaka are clearly visible or how close the public could come to the site. Using private keris during this event would be impossible to me. If you are into keris kuno, the ones from Madura are a pain. A few years ago I sat with pak Eko, a mranggi, ahli keris in the Yogja area and we discussed these keris, comparing old with new. He expected that in the near future it would be increasingly difficult to tell old from new, even for the experts. From what I see now, he was right. At least for the starting collector. You really have to have had hundreds of keris passing through your hands to tell right from wrong. And even then, there are the ones which make you doubt.

9th December 2016, 10:22 AM	#5
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	You gave better words to these concepts than I did. Since I'm not a native speaker in English it is always hard to find the correct words or phrases to express the nuances felt. Thank you Alan. Indeed, over the last fourty years I saw thousands of keris passing through my hands, discussing them with many others, among which many ahli keris both in Europe and on Jawa. This is the only way to learn. I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cicak, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi, all in combination with sound of the metal, skin, colour, weight, balance and sometimes even the scent. I find this not to be an exact science. I'm always eager to learn more. Is is appropriate to ask where I can find the criteria Empu Suparman used for his determination? Last edited by Kulino; 9th December 2016 at 08:06 PM. Reason: mis spelling

8th December 2016, 07:52 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	He was a bit of a cult figure, still is if truth be known. Really good at two things:- spending money and fathering children. I've met a number of people who claimed that he was their ancestor, including my housekeeper, whose mother was one of the Karaton dancers. Here he is:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakubu...r_10001903.jpg

8th December 2016, 10:16 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I feel myself that it is not a matter the value of something that permits it to survive, but rather its relevance, and within a society the relevance of anything varies dependent upon the layer or segment of society that is considered. In Jawa, if we put a culturally based question, the same question, to people who come from different segments of the society, we will sometimes get very different answers. That which is relevant to a farmer who is still using traditional methods is not at all relevant to somebody who has completed a university degree and wants both himself, and his country to be seen as a part of the "Modern World". Yes, I do understand the PR displays that the Karatons put on, but once again I do most sincerely suggest that the nature of at least the Surakarta pusakas be given a very close look. In respect of identification of old keris, one does not need to have handled hundreds of keris. This is very, very far from reality. One needs to have handled thousands of keris and to have handled a good number of those under the guidance of somebody who truly understands what he is looking at. How to do this at the present time? I do not know.

9th December 2016, 11:56 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Those indicators would be useless to you Kulino. The indicators can be represented by words, certainly, but only the man himself could explain those words, and what they represented to him. Regrettably he left us many years ago. While we are on the subject of words, may I enquire where you learnt the words you are using:- "--- I'm used to look at lots of details like shapes of gandik, selassih, endas cecek, gandja, puncuk of the blade, definition of the pecetan area, the general appearance of the blad itself (condro), shape and construction of the peksi ---" ?

9th December 2016, 01:17 PM	#7
Kulino Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 84	The words I use, some come from the discussions I had and have with others. Other words come from the long list of literature there is. Such as Kaliwon Pudjangga Kraton Surakarta by R.Ng. Ronggowarsito and other (alleged kraton) manuscripts. They should indicate features or specific parts of the wingkinan. Like the head or tail of the ganja, the tip or the glow or sound of the metal, etc. Maybe misspelled or misguided in your opinion?