A late 16th century Dussack for comment

[cornelistromp]

Hi Jean Luc,

globular pommels are fairly simple in form but are rarely found on swords and rapiers in the 16thC.

In the Low Countries (Netherlands) unless other countries globular pommels were common between 1575-1600. frequently depicted in Dutch art. on rapiers and around 1650 on smallswords


therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree

above dussage typeF is a nice example, herewith some more pics.
forsvaret museum Aalborg Denmark nr. FMU.001156/5021/19644

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Jean Luc,

globular pommels are fairly simple in form but are rarely found on swords and rapiers in the 16thC.

In the Low Countries (Netherlands) unless other countries globular pommels were common between 1575-1600. frequently depicted in Dutch art. on rapiers and around 1650 on smallswords


therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree

above dussage typeF is a nice example, herewith some more pics.
forsvaret museum Aalborg Denmark nr. FMU.001156/5021/19644

Jasper

Thank you for this additional pics and also museum references who are so important.
"therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree "

It would be a shame if something happened to this sword.I know that your walls are already full ,and I would be very worried to hear that this sword is laying on your floor. But if you are ready to change your decoration ( less German but more Dutch) I could always help you to make space and could advice you which two hands swords or Katbalger you should sell or swap to me.

best

Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Jasper

Thank you for this additional pics and also museum references who are so important.
"therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree "

It would be a shame if something happened to this sword.I know that your walls are already full ,and I would be very worried to hear that this sword is laying on your floor. But if you are ready to change your decoration ( less German but more Dutch) I could always help you to make space and could advice you which two hands swords or Katbalger you should sell or swap to me.

best

Jean-Luc

We can discuss it after! a good bottle of Bordeaux -gcc, because I have a very pretty Afghan rifle to swap that could fit well in your collection.

[Tordenskiold1721]

Just a small correction Jasper. FMU stands for Forsvars Museet that is located at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. This are Norwegian Tessak's imported from Amsterdam and Hamburg between 1598 - approx 1611

Aalborg is in Denmark and I don't think they have a arms and Armour museum. Just so that we stay true to history. It always helps in keeping us honest in understanding this beautiful Pisces

Why do you think this swords has anything to do with Aalborg ? In fact this is the area of the former Denmark Norway where we have not found any Dussack's. Are you simply making things up ?

We can all visit the Norwegian National museum website and search for Tessak and a number of Dussack's will show up:

https://digitaltmuseum.no/search/?aq...3A%22tessak%22

Where you get Aalborg involved in this I simply do not know. When that is said I do have some very good collector friends in Aalborg.

Do you understand the typology you are referring too ? And what literature reference the web site from the Norwegian national museum is using?

This typology is limited to the commonly Tessak's found in Norway and does not cover all Types found in Europe. Also found here:

http://norskevaapen.no/wp-content/up...saktgrep21.jpg

The typology was made in a study by Per Terje Norheim and this is the main types found in Norway, imported from Hamburg and likely Amsterdam. Delivered in Bergen and Christiania(Now Oslo). Just like Petersen's typology from 1919 is based on Viking swords found in Norway only and later expended by Oakeshott typology that includes Viking swords and later swords from the whole of Europe, I am sure someone will switch on to Per Terje Norheims work and make a lot of money from expanding his typology. History has a tendency to repeat itself. This might be the type of work that would be right up your ally? = Someones else intellectual property translated and expanded in the English language.

"It's in attention to detail truth will prevail"

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Tordenskiold1721

Just a small correction Jasper. FMU stands for Forsvars Museet that is located at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. This are Norwegian Tessak's imported from Amsterdam and Hamburg between 1598 - approx 1611

Aalborg is in Denmark and I don't think they have a arms and Armour museum. Just so that we stay true to history. It always helps in keeping us honest in understanding this beautiful Pisces

sorry my mistake, there is also a Forsvars museum in Aalborg, just mixed up two museums with the same name.

this is historically and scientifically speaking, of course, totally unacceptable to make such a huge mistake.

http://www.forsvarsmuseum.dk/


I always (try to) put the source with the articles and photos I place.

you should try to do the same, in the interest of "staying true to history".


however the real reason for your overreaction is that you're like me're very interested in obtaining the dussage of post #1.

this I do understand because it is a very beautiful and exceptional specimen.

best,
Jasper

[Tordenskiold1721]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

sorry my mistake, there is also a Forsvars museum in Aalborg, just mixed up two museums with the same name.

this is historically and scientifically speaking, of course, totally unacceptable to make such a huge mistake.

http://www.forsvarsmuseum.dk/


I always (try to) put the source with the articles and photos I place.

you should try to do the same, in the interest of "staying true to history".


however the real reason for your overreaction is that you're like me're very interested in obtaining the dussage of post #1.

this I do understand because it is a very beautiful and exceptional specimen.

best,
Jasper

Yes, you are 100% right, as you I am also interested in the Dussage / Dussack / Tessak :-) My apology for going a bit overboard in aforementioned post.

[cornelistromp]

honest! thank you, apology accepted .

best,
Jasper

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

We can discuss it after! a good bottle of Bordeaux -gcc, because I have a very pretty Afghan rifle to swap that could fit well in your collection.

Jasper ,
Of course we can always discuss but even with a mathusalem I do think that you have any chance with this swap ,and you did not tell me if this Kalashnikov is Chinese or Russian pattern.
best

Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Jasper ,
Of course we can always discuss but even with a mathusalem I do think that you have any chance with this swap ,and you did not tell me if this Kalashnikov is Chinese or Russian pattern.
best

Jean-Luc

it is older, something like this
forget it, I have a better idea, the '47 we drink '48 we swap for the sword.


jasper

[Jim McDougall]

This has been a most fascinating discussion toward the dusagge (tessack) and as has been well noted, it is good to 'stay true to history', which is best achieved as we not only correct each other as required, but ourselves at times.
In my original post (#3) I made reference to the term 'Sinclair sabre' and the misnomer's reference to the unfortunate 'battle' in Norway. I would like to thank Tordenskiold for the accounts of that event, the Battle of Kringen, August 26,1612.

In researching more on this curious 'misnomer' in "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" Claude Blair, (in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800", ed. David Caldwell, 1981, pp.190-191)...it is noted that with regard to the Scottish units of mercenaries associated with these swords, "...nobody appears ever to have produced the slightest evidence to connect any 'Sinclair sabres' with it'.

As has been previously noted in the discussion here, these types of swords had been brought into Norway for militia much earlier by Christian IV perhaps 1580s or 90s. While I had noted that these were typically curved blades they were apparently straight as well.

The use of George Sinclair's name with reference to these swords seems to have had more to do with Scottish peerage and clan tradition than actual use of these by Scots in Norway, or his alleged 'leadership' of these forces.
Actually Sinclair was only a Captain according to some sources (incl. Puype as noted by Jasper), and the force was technically under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.
These troops were to land in Romsdal, in Norway, to travel south to Sweden to join their forces there, and their arms augmented as well. They are said to have been lightly armed, with some basket hilts and mostly lochaber axes and other polearms.

Sinclair and most of his troops were well acquainted with these areas of Norway, in fact Sinclairs clan are said to originate from these areas and his peerage to the 5th Earl of Caithness also probably played a key role in the development of this 'collectors term'. In the patriotic and romanticized Highland fervor of the Victorian era, as well as the 'basket' type hilt of these swords led to collectors of the times thus creating this term.

These type basket hilt swords were likely produced in Germany, though it is noted that many if not most were from Styria (Austria). In this case, I am inclined to think this example with running wolf would be German as I am under the impression that this well known mark was not used in Styria. Of course I would welcome correction on that note as it is simply a cursory opinion .

I just thought that this historical detail might add to our appreciation of the forementioned background on these swords.

References noted by Mr. Blair also;
"History of the Scottish Expedition to Norway in 1612"
T. Michell, London, 1886
"Die Norske Sinclair Sabler" Holger Jacobsen, 'Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger'
1934-36

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This has been a most fascinating discussion toward the dusagge (tessack) and as has been well noted, it is good to 'stay true to history', which is best achieved as we not only correct each other as required, but ourselves at times.
In my original post (#3) I made reference to the term 'Sinclair sabre' and the misnomer's reference to the unfortunate 'battle' in Norway. I would like to thank Tordenskiold for the accounts of that event, the Battle of Kringen, August 26,1612.

In researching more on this curious 'misnomer' in "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" Claude Blair, (in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800", ed. David Caldwell, 1981, pp.190-191)...it is noted that with regard to the Scottish units of mercenaries associated with these swords, "...nobody appears ever to have produced the slightest evidence to connect any 'Sinclair sabres' with it'.

As has been previously noted in the discussion here, these types of swords had been brought into Norway for militia much earlier by Christian IV perhaps 1580s or 90s. While I had noted that these were typically curved blades they were apparently straight as well.

The use of George Sinclair's name with reference to these swords seems to have had more to do with Scottish peerage and clan tradition than actual use of these by Scots in Norway, or his alleged 'leadership' of these forces.
Actually Sinclair was only a Captain according to some sources (incl. Puype as noted by Jasper), and the force was technically under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.
These troops were to land in Romsdal, in Norway, to travel south to Sweden to join their forces there, and their arms augmented as well. They are said to have been lightly armed, with some basket hilts and mostly lochaber axes and other polearms.

Sinclair and most of his troops were well acquainted with these areas of Norway, in fact Sinclairs clan are said to originate from these areas and his peerage to the 5th Earl of Caithness also probably played a key role in the development of this 'collectors term'. In the patriotic and romanticized Highland fervor of the Victorian era, as well as the 'basket' type hilt of these swords led to collectors of the times thus creating this term.

These type basket hilt swords were likely produced in Germany, though it is noted that many if not most were from Styria (Austria). In this case, I am inclined to think this example with running wolf would be German as I am under the impression that this well known mark was not used in Styria. Of course I would welcome correction on that note as it is simply a cursory opinion .

I just thought that this historical detail might add to our appreciation of the forementioned background on these swords.

References noted by Mr. Blair also;
"History of the Scottish Expedition to Norway in 1612"
T. Michell, London, 1886
"Die Norske Sinclair Sabler" Holger Jacobsen, 'Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger'
1934-36

I am proud that this sword has inspired a such interesting discussion toward the dusagge.
Thank you Arne ,Jasper and Jim!

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This has been a most fascinating discussion toward the dusagge (tessack) and as has been well noted, it is good to 'stay true to history', which is best achieved as we not only correct each other as required, but ourselves at times.
In my original post (#3) I made reference to the term 'Sinclair sabre' and the misnomer's reference to the unfortunate 'battle' in Norway. I would like to thank Tordenskiold for the accounts of that event, the Battle of Kringen, August 26,1612.

In researching more on this curious 'misnomer' in "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" Claude Blair, (in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800", ed. David Caldwell, 1981, pp.190-191)...it is noted that with regard to the Scottish units of mercenaries associated with these swords, "...nobody appears ever to have produced the slightest evidence to connect any 'Sinclair sabres' with it'.

As has been previously noted in the discussion here, these types of swords had been brought into Norway for militia much earlier by Christian IV perhaps 1580s or 90s. While I had noted that these were typically curved blades they were apparently straight as well.

The use of George Sinclair's name with reference to these swords seems to have had more to do with Scottish peerage and clan tradition than actual use of these by Scots in Norway, or his alleged 'leadership' of these forces.
Actually Sinclair was only a Captain according to some sources (incl. Puype as noted by Jasper), and the force was technically under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.
These troops were to land in Romsdal, in Norway, to travel south to Sweden to join their forces there, and their arms augmented as well. They are said to have been lightly armed, with some basket hilts and mostly lochaber axes and other polearms.

Sinclair and most of his troops were well acquainted with these areas of Norway, in fact Sinclairs clan are said to originate from these areas and his peerage to the 5th Earl of Caithness also probably played a key role in the development of this 'collectors term'. In the patriotic and romanticized Highland fervor of the Victorian era, as well as the 'basket' type hilt of these swords led to collectors of the times thus creating this term.

These type basket hilt swords were likely produced in Germany, though it is noted that many if not most were from Styria (Austria). In this case, I am inclined to think this example with running wolf would be German as I am under the impression that this well known mark was not used in Styria. Of course I would welcome correction on that note as it is simply a cursory opinion .

I just thought that this historical detail might add to our appreciation of the forementioned background on these swords.

References noted by Mr. Blair also;
"History of the Scottish Expedition to Norway in 1612"
T. Michell, London, 1886
"Die Norske Sinclair Sabler" Holger Jacobsen, 'Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger'
1934-36

Re: correction
correction brought in a decent manner is fine, on the other hand unsubstantiated allegations as post 12 are unseemly and probably caused by a combination of frustration and envy, if self-correction is not working , professional assistance could probably provide solution.

Re: dussage type with a straight blade.
About the dussage and variations of basket hilts Seitz mentioned the following in Blankwaffen p 325;
Towards the end of the 1600th c you find the same principle ( of basket hilt) in different forms and so also in a larger number of militarily types in the weapons bought by Christian IV in Germany for the arming of the country population of Norway. See attachement
Basket hilts bought by Christian IV in 1589 1604 and 1617 (schiavona).

on the origins of the war booty of Sinclairsabel Seitz mentioned following:
Sinclair sabel is a perhaps romanticized conception of the war booty which was taken from a Scottish troop under the command of captain George Sinclair.
(Jacobsen 1937/1939)
………… From a theoretical point of view the matter could be more complex with regard to the way the southern Germans weapon took to Norway.
That both the Scottish and the Norwegian peasants could be equipped with such weapons. There is nothing known about it.


best,
Jasper

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

it is older, something like this
forget it, I have a better idea, the '47 we drink '48 we swap for the sword.


jasper

Jasper

There is some details who need to be to be fixed…
1 )we must stay in the same year 1947 So the quality will be already checked so I will not be worried about the condition of the second bottle.
2) so first Bottle for the discussion ,the second for the swap, and the third I will need it in order to forget my beautiful sword!
3) Tell me which model of corkscrew I should bring to you for open the bottle (the folding model is Dutch)
Awaiting your comment on it.
PS the afghan riffle we could put it in the fireplace.
best
Jean-Luc

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Jasper

There is some details who need to be to be fixed…
1 )we must stay in the same year 1947 So the quality will be already checked so I will not be worried about the condition of the second bottle.
2) so first Bottle for the discussion ,the second for the swap, and the third I will need it in order to forget my beautiful sword!
3) Tell me which model of corkscrew I should bring to you for open the bottle (the folding model is Dutch)
Awaiting your comment on it.
PS the afghan riffle we could put it in the fireplace.
best
Jean-Luc

1. is not possible , I have t0 check the market or can I change the year to 1989 or 1990 ?
2. you still have another nice one from a famous collection.
3a. the Dutch one..... of course.
3b. already done last weekend when it was cold here.

best,
jasper