Marks on Walloon sword for id.

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2016, 02:16 PM

Hi Jasper,
Thank you so much for these responses and important information!
Along with Jean Luc, I am always amazed (and envious) at the detailed knowledge you share on so many aspects of these European swords.

In retracing notes which prompted my comment on the departure of many Solingen smiths to other countries, typically citing the disastrous "Thirty Years War" (1618-48) as one of the reasons, I find that Holland was not demonstrably among the places they went. It is however important to note that England was one location (Hounslow) and as Aylward (" The Small Sword in England") has described, there were profound connections between these countries (politically and therefore other as well). Though this really has no bearing on production of the Dutch blades discussed here, it is important to note the similarities and cross influences of English and Dutch 'walloons'.
These are well described in "British Military Swords" (Stuart Mowbray, 2013) .

In that book, Mowbray comments on the SAHAGUM marking which I mentioned earlier, and that name on these 17th c blades almost invariably suggests it is Dutch (p.91).

The excerpt you have attached here regarding the Amsterdam city mark is outstanding!! Thank you. Which reference is it from? so that I may add to my notes (which clearly need revamping) .

On the Koln (Cologne) reference, I could not locate the specific source, but in further rechecking think that it was referring to the fact that while Solingen indeed produced blades from earlier times, there were restrictions on the assembly of finished weapons. Apparently these were put together in Cologne and from there exported.....thence often termed 'Cologne swords' .
Source: "History of the Solingen Cutlery Industry", Siegfried Rosenkaimer, in 'Blades Guide to Knives and Their Values'.

Naturally this does not specify that Dutch swords alone, or in any fashion were assembled in Cologne, but may have been the source of my suggestion from notes .

Regarding the anomalous Walloon sans the four petal quillon mark, and the running wolf, TO mark and 1414....
While we have it seems long thought that these crowned TO shields were to represent Toledo, Mowbray (op. cit. p250) discusses a rapier in England with one of these marks. Here he claims that this particular mark, rather than representing (other than Toledo) a legitimate mark used in CAINO, a blade producing center in Brescia, northern Italy .

The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray .

The blade is as you suggest, probably a replacement and offers some interesting context.

Thank you again,
Jim

cornelistromp · 14th November 2016, 03:45 PM

@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

Cerjak · 14th November 2016, 04:25 PM

jasper,

Yes with good eyes no doubt it's Sahagun !
I will pm you the hd pictures.Thank you Japer you made a complete analysis for this sword .We even have the original draw !
Best
Jean-Luc

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2016, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

Actually Jasper, as I have continued searching throughout the morning here for hours now, I think that is exactly right! Most other sources and reading have consistently stated these were made in Germany FOR the Dutch.
Even when the French finally adopted these 'Walloon' swords into their M1679 regulation patterns, they were acquiring them THROUGH the Amsterdam arms brokers who had them from Solingen.

I found some detail suggesting that the 'kleeblatt' (clover leaf or quatrefoil) on the quillon may have been placed by the French as swords being sent to their allies in campaigns of latter 17th c. but it seems that it was indeed placed in Amsterdam.

It does seem consistant to me that the SAHAGUM on the blade is very much Dutch, which makes sense as Spanish quality must have been firmly established in the Netherlands during Spanish rule. However it seems a paradox as the Dutch detested 'Papal' rule.

It is amazing how much history is learned with these faithful old swords as our guides!!!

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

cornelistromp · 15th November 2016, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.

best,
jasper

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2016, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.

best,
jasper

Thank you Jasper, much appreciated.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th December 2016, 01:42 PM

Not knowing a lot about these swords I have to say what a great thread this is. The knowledge displayed by Forum on this subject is very much respected. Thank you for the fine detail and a superb thread. I ran into another example at http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...e/? irn=249330 and at http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795 I was particularly interested in the play with numbers noted by Jim and on another thread on Forum at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon and further detail at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon

My question is ...Since SAHAGUN appears to be a Spanish sword making family name ~ Has the name been copied onto Solingen swords as a measure of quality...like Andrea Ferrera etc...?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

werecow · 31st May 2022, 02:00 PM

Quote:

The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray .

Could this be a reference to Exodus 14:14?

"The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still."

14th November 2016, 04:25 PM	#3
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	jasper, Yes with good eyes no doubt it's Sahagun ! I will pm you the hd pictures.Thank you Japer you made a complete analysis for this sword .We even have the original draw ! Best Jean-Luc Attached Images

8th December 2016, 01:42 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Not knowing a lot about these swords I have to say what a great thread this is. The knowledge displayed by Forum on this subject is very much respected. Thank you for the fine detail and a superb thread. I ran into another example at http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...e/? irn=249330 and at http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795 I was particularly interested in the play with numbers noted by Jim and on another thread on Forum at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon and further detail at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon My question is ...Since SAHAGUN appears to be a Spanish sword making family name ~ Has the name been copied onto Solingen swords as a measure of quality...like Andrea Ferrera etc...? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th December 2016 at 02:20 PM.

14th November 2016, 02:16 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	Hi Jasper, Thank you so much for these responses and important information! Along with Jean Luc, I am always amazed (and envious) at the detailed knowledge you share on so many aspects of these European swords. In retracing notes which prompted my comment on the departure of many Solingen smiths to other countries, typically citing the disastrous "Thirty Years War" (1618-48) as one of the reasons, I find that Holland was not demonstrably among the places they went. It is however important to note that England was one location (Hounslow) and as Aylward (" The Small Sword in England") has described, there were profound connections between these countries (politically and therefore other as well). Though this really has no bearing on production of the Dutch blades discussed here, it is important to note the similarities and cross influences of English and Dutch 'walloons'. These are well described in "British Military Swords" (Stuart Mowbray, 2013) . In that book, Mowbray comments on the SAHAGUM marking which I mentioned earlier, and that name on these 17th c blades almost invariably suggests it is Dutch (p.91). The excerpt you have attached here regarding the Amsterdam city mark is outstanding!! Thank you. Which reference is it from? so that I may add to my notes (which clearly need revamping) . On the Koln (Cologne) reference, I could not locate the specific source, but in further rechecking think that it was referring to the fact that while Solingen indeed produced blades from earlier times, there were restrictions on the assembly of finished weapons. Apparently these were put together in Cologne and from there exported.....thence often termed 'Cologne swords' . Source: "History of the Solingen Cutlery Industry", Siegfried Rosenkaimer, in 'Blades Guide to Knives and Their Values'. Naturally this does not specify that Dutch swords alone, or in any fashion were assembled in Cologne, but may have been the source of my suggestion from notes . Regarding the anomalous Walloon sans the four petal quillon mark, and the running wolf, TO mark and 1414.... While we have it seems long thought that these crowned TO shields were to represent Toledo, Mowbray (op. cit. p250) discusses a rapier in England with one of these marks. Here he claims that this particular mark, rather than representing (other than Toledo) a legitimate mark used in CAINO, a blade producing center in Brescia, northern Italy . The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray . The blade is as you suggest, probably a replacement and offers some interesting context. Thank you again, Jim

14th November 2016, 03:45 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,063	@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun? @Jim It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.