Mughal? or Indian dagger?.

ALEX · 14th November 2016, 09:40 AM

Hello Alex,
Your suspicion is correct, it is a "touristic souvenir". It is not Mughal. The hilt is Asian (could be Chinese), the blade looks like cut from sheet metal, not forged. In my opinion this is more a fantasy item rather than anything particular or authentic.

Roland_M · 14th November 2016, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Hello Alex,
Your suspicion is correct, it is a "touristic souvenir".

A touristic souvenir with a jade hilt, are you sure? The hilt seems handmade without machine driven tools and the corrosion on the blade looks old.

But I'm just a collector, not an expert and for my eyes the pictures are not good enough for a proper statement.

Some macro-pictures would be useful.

Best wishes,
Roland

Battara · 14th November 2016, 03:13 PM

I too thought that it was a tourist or export item when I saw this. I agree with Alex.

ALEX · 14th November 2016, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A touristic souvenir with a jade hilt, are you sure? The hilt seems handmade without machine driven tools and the corrosion on the blade looks old.

But I'm just a collector, not an expert and for my eyes the pictures are not good enough for a proper statement.

Some macro-pictures would be useful.

Best wishes,
Roland

Hello Roland,
The hilt material does not look jade at all (i.e. nephrite jade), and the work actually does look machine made and very crude. There are tons of jade/jadeite/quartz daggers currently being produced in India.
The blade could look old, but if it is cut of sheet metal - the look is irrelevant.
The form is actually of Turkish kard (very vainly), but nothing is right about this one. Here's the proper SAMPLE

donsamadhi · 14th November 2016, 10:04 PM

Hello,

I see, there are different opinions. So, I will try to give you more details. First of all , the blade is not made from the sheet metal!

it is double edged blade made from resilient and quenched steel and it gives beautiful sound. It was etched from deep corrosion which covered it in the whole. That`s why it has got dark a bit.But the incrustation before was completely invisible. The blade is not flat at all, as it seems to be on the photos, but it is slightly cylindrical and it narrows to the edges. The carving on the hilt is not done mechanically, for sure! The specialist from minerals and rocks said that it was hand-made. He also claims that it has to be an old work because of the detrition which can be seen with the naked eye. Unfortunately , the photos don`t show it. It is jadeite for sure (so called jade) the scratch is white and the hardness points that it isn`t a nephrite, it is rare and worth. The problem is from what culture and period it comes from. I couldn`t find information about. The motifs are very original and unusual.
Tomorrow, I will give you more photos with high definition. I hope they will show much more to confirm what I`ve written above. It is difficult to take a good photo of it because it fades away, that`s why some attached photos have bigger contrast to show better the carving.
Thank you for your interests,
Alex.

Oliver Pinchot · 15th November 2016, 01:48 AM

The blade is Ottoman from the beginning of the 20th century. The grip, whatever stone it is, is Persian work of the 1940s or 50s. It is what collectors call a "married" piece, i.e. two parts wedded together from disparate origins. These are often sold in bazaars and suqs in the Middle East and environs.

mariusgmioc · 15th November 2016, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donsamadhi

Hello,

The carving on the hilt is not done mechanically, for sure! The specialist from minerals and rocks said that it was hand-made.
Alex.

Hand-made... maybe in the sense that the electrical rotating tool that was used to make it was held in the hand.

Examine the grooves and engravings on the hilt under 10x magnification. If they have a circular cross-section, they are machined with a hand-held electric tool. If they have a crisp, triangular cross-section, they are carved/chiseled with a chisel.

But in the end we all believe what we want to believe.

ALEX · 15th November 2016, 11:55 AM

Oliver,
I never stop learning from you and being amazed by the depth of your knowledge. Thank you for that!

Marius,
Likewise, thanks for clarifying hand/machine made. This is also what I meant by that it seems made with electrical hand-held rotating tool opposite to archaic or antique carving.

mariusgmioc · 15th November 2016, 01:59 PM

While, it is dificult to say from the photos, the material might be Onyx, which is found in abundance in Anatolia. The green or whitish varieties of Onyx not only look exactly like Jade, but also feel like jade to the touch and can be extremely misleading. I have seen also glass immitations of Jade that are extremely difficult to distinguish from real Jade (but those I have seen so far only in Chinese "jade" products).

donsamadhi · 17th November 2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A touristic souvenir with a jade hilt, are you sure? The hilt seems handmade without machine driven tools and the corrosion on the blade looks old.

But I'm just a collector, not an expert and for my eyes the pictures are not good enough for a proper statement.

Some macro-pictures would be useful.

Best wishes,
Roland

And of course you Roland

Best regards.

mariusgmioc · 18th November 2016, 10:36 AM

Thank you for the additional photos!

Certainly very poorly machine milled. No doubts about that.

Also pretty sure it is Onyx, very abundant in central Turkey.

Sorry!

mariusgmioc · 18th November 2016, 11:00 AM

You may want o have a look at my posting regarding Jade/Onyx in the Ethnographic Miscellania section of this forum.

donsamadhi · 20th November 2016, 09:22 PM

Hello,

I respect your opinion Marius ,the expert of minerals was thinking about the jade and bovenit. Finally he said that this is jade. The signs points to the use of simple tools, but there are some doubts. I see that nobody else wanted to comment that

Everyone can be wrong only by looking at photos. I always rely on the opinions of the other people. Thank you.

Best Regards,
Alex

ALEX · 21st November 2016, 09:55 AM

Some experts call any green stone a jade, including green quartz, jadeite, etc. It depends what definition they use. "Real" jade is referred to as Nephrite, and can contain some quartz. You may see
THIS LINK

mariusgmioc · 21st November 2016, 08:40 PM

1. Why am I pretty sure it is not Jade (Nephrite or Jadeite)?!
1.1 Jade was and is in big demand and commands rather high prices. Therefore, it is used on valuable pieces of certain artistic value and not wasted on "tourist" items.
2. Why am I pretty sure it is Onyx?!
1.1 Onyx of precisely this coulour is found in abundance in central Anatolia and comes very cheap.
1.2 Onyx is charaterised in that it has a layered structure with parallel layers (see the photo of the horse) which can be easily identified also in the hilt (see the first three photos). Albeit I have seen pieces of up to 3 centimetres thick without any discernable layer.
3. Why am I pretty sure it was machined with a rotary tool?!
1.1 The grooves have circular cross-section and display transverse parallel traces of the rotating tool (see photos 5 and 6).
1.2 The entry/exit point of the tool is round (see last photo).
But I am definitely not an expert.

18th November 2016, 10:36 AM	#11
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Thank you for the additional photos! Certainly very poorly machine milled. No doubts about that. Also pretty sure it is Onyx, very abundant in central Turkey. Sorry! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 18th November 2016 at 01:56 PM.

18th November 2016, 11:00 AM	#12
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	You may want o have a look at my posting regarding Jade/Onyx in the Ethnographic Miscellania section of this forum. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 19th November 2016 at 09:45 AM.

21st November 2016, 08:40 PM	#15
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	1. Why am I pretty sure it is not Jade (Nephrite or Jadeite)?! 1.1 Jade was and is in big demand and commands rather high prices. Therefore, it is used on valuable pieces of certain artistic value and not wasted on "tourist" items. 2. Why am I pretty sure it is Onyx?! 1.1 Onyx of precisely this coulour is found in abundance in central Anatolia and comes very cheap. 1.2 Onyx is charaterised in that it has a layered structure with parallel layers (see the photo of the horse) which can be easily identified also in the hilt (see the first three photos). Albeit I have seen pieces of up to 3 centimetres thick without any discernable layer. 3. Why am I pretty sure it was machined with a rotary tool?! 1.1 The grooves have circular cross-section and display transverse parallel traces of the rotating tool (see photos 5 and 6). 1.2 The entry/exit point of the tool is round (see last photo). But I am definitely not an expert. Attached Images Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st November 2016 at 08:52 PM.

14th November 2016, 09:40 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Hello Alex, Your suspicion is correct, it is a "touristic souvenir". It is not Mughal. The hilt is Asian (could be Chinese), the blade looks like cut from sheet metal, not forged. In my opinion this is more a fantasy item rather than anything particular or authentic.

14th November 2016, 03:13 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I too thought that it was a tourist or export item when I saw this. I agree with Alex.

14th November 2016, 10:04 PM	#5
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Hello, I see, there are different opinions. So, I will try to give you more details. First of all , the blade is not made from the sheet metal! it is double edged blade made from resilient and quenched steel and it gives beautiful sound. It was etched from deep corrosion which covered it in the whole. That`s why it has got dark a bit.But the incrustation before was completely invisible. The blade is not flat at all, as it seems to be on the photos, but it is slightly cylindrical and it narrows to the edges. The carving on the hilt is not done mechanically, for sure! The specialist from minerals and rocks said that it was hand-made. He also claims that it has to be an old work because of the detrition which can be seen with the naked eye. Unfortunately , the photos don`t show it. It is jadeite for sure (so called jade) the scratch is white and the hardness points that it isn`t a nephrite, it is rare and worth. The problem is from what culture and period it comes from. I couldn`t find information about. The motifs are very original and unusual. Tomorrow, I will give you more photos with high definition. I hope they will show much more to confirm what I`ve written above. It is difficult to take a good photo of it because it fades away, that`s why some attached photos have bigger contrast to show better the carving. Thank you for your interests, Alex.

15th November 2016, 01:48 AM	#6
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	The blade is Ottoman from the beginning of the 20th century. The grip, whatever stone it is, is Persian work of the 1940s or 50s. It is what collectors call a "married" piece, i.e. two parts wedded together from disparate origins. These are often sold in bazaars and suqs in the Middle East and environs.

15th November 2016, 11:55 AM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Oliver, I never stop learning from you and being amazed by the depth of your knowledge. Thank you for that! Marius, Likewise, thanks for clarifying hand/machine made. This is also what I meant by that it seems made with electrical hand-held rotating tool opposite to archaic or antique carving.

15th November 2016, 01:59 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	While, it is dificult to say from the photos, the material might be Onyx, which is found in abundance in Anatolia. The green or whitish varieties of Onyx not only look exactly like Jade, but also feel like jade to the touch and can be extremely misleading. I have seen also glass immitations of Jade that are extremely difficult to distinguish from real Jade (but those I have seen so far only in Chinese "jade" products).

20th November 2016, 09:22 PM	#13
donsamadhi Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 24	Hello, I respect your opinion Marius ,the expert of minerals was thinking about the jade and bovenit. Finally he said that this is jade. The signs points to the use of simple tools, but there are some doubts. I see that nobody else wanted to comment that Everyone can be wrong only by looking at photos. I always rely on the opinions of the other people. Thank you. Best Regards, Alex

21st November 2016, 09:55 AM	#14
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Some experts call any green stone a jade, including green quartz, jadeite, etc. It depends what definition they use. "Real" jade is referred to as Nephrite, and can contain some quartz. You may see THIS LINK