Yataghans:bibliography and identification

[Jim McDougall]

I have been going through 'search', online, and notes, and as I mentioned, the 'yataghan' has a great deal of information scattered throughout these sources. While often construed simply as 'Turkish', these eared pommel, forward curved swords were prevalent throughout the Balkans, Greece, Albania and many regions of the Ottoman Empire.

One source I would highly recommend is Robert Elgood's
"The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors".
In his usual comprehensive manner, Elgood shows many examples and footnotes, cites, and bibliography should provide great channels to pursue in this research.

I found some notes pertaining to the term 'karakulak' (=dark, or black ears) used for these swords in the Balkans and Greece.
Meanwhile the term hun'gar or hun'cer (Ar. khanjhar) the root of the term hanger, is also applicable in degree, so more on the use of these terms might need clarification.

[mankova]

Mr Jim McDougall,
Your thoughts are priceless
I'm very grateful

Mr Kubur, indeed museum notes for those objects say it's Balkan

Originally Posted by ariel
Try "Yatagani" by Gozde Yasar. Collection of Askeri Muze in Istanbul.

thank you, I will search for it

[TVV]

Ms. Mankova,

I will second Jim's suggestion about trying to obtain a copy of Elgood's "The Arms of Greece and (some) of its Balkan Neighbors". Not only the chapter on yataghans will help answer your questions about the origin of the form, but the first few chapters in the book provide a great background into the history of arms and armor and their manufacture and trade within the Ottoman Empire. This background is essential in trying to understand the yataghan, especially when you consider that a blade hilted in Foca may have been mounted in a silver scabbard in Istanbul and sold to a client from Asia Minor.

The Askeri Museum catalog, along with the Zagreb History Museum catalog are just this: catalogs. They have some general history chapters, but the goal of those books is to list a whole bunch of examples, without any real study into areas of origin. You can see the materials, the translated inscriptions and a date for most of the examples, but that is about it. The Dora Boskovic book could be useful as it has multiple similar yataghans to the ones you are tasked with restoring, as the focus of that collection is yataghans from the Western Balkans.

I would be very careful using Astvatsaturian's book, as the yataghan typology there is purely the author's guess, as she admits in the text. She tries to examine the decorative techniques used to come up with geographical attribution and for example ends up attributing a group of Greek yataghans to Eastern Anatolia because of the use of niello, which she believes has to be tied to the Caucasus.

To sum it up, my recommendation is for you to obtain Elgood's book. If all you need from the museum catalogs are the pictures and descriptions of similar yataghans to the two you are restoring, then I can probably help with that.

Sincerely,
Teodor

[Jerseyman]

[QUOTE=Meanwhile the term hun'gar or hun'cer (Ar. khanjhar) the root of the term hanger, is also applicable in degree, so more on the use of these terms might need clarification.[/QUOTE]

Jim - that's very interesting - are you sure of that etymological link? I've often wondered where the term hanger came from as applied to swords. Do you have any further information on that?

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

I would also be quite cautious using the Elgood's book as a reference for the Yataghan's origin as, in my oppinion, his attributions are mostly anecdotal and not based on their features' analysis.

In my absolutely novice's oppinion, these Yataghans appear to be from the Balkans (most likely Bosnia).

Good luck!

[Jim McDougall]

Mankova, thank you very much for your kind words, and especially for entering your query here with us. It is always exciting to have these kinds of topics which bring active discussion and often more answers as we work to learn together.
I am glad to have Teodor here with us, as over the years his knowledge and understanding on yataghans has given many here keen insight in learning more about them.

Jerseyman, I believe that reference came from "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Eduard Wagner, Prague, 1967) but it seems it comes from a number of other sources as well. I was recalling it from research some time ago, so I will see if I can retrace. Some of it was pertaining to the term and etymology as used in referring to various European hangers, and will try to relocate more.

Marius, Dr. Elgood himself would profoundly agree with using caution toward accepting material conclusively as a reference. As far as I have known however, his work has been meticulously researched, and anecdotal material typically well qualified. I know that personally I very much enjoy browsing through his volumes of footnotes and well referenced sources and cites in all of his works, which are virtual treasure troves of data.

In referring to yataghans' origin, do you mean as specifically to classification of the examples in the book as to regional attribution?
I think that one of the larger problems in attribution of yataghan variations and forms is that there are no real hard and fast rules which can isolate them into specific regional categories, at least as far as I have known.
There may be some better established consistencies known to those who have focused on these weapons over time, but as with many ethnographic forms, anecdotal record is often the only evidential criteria at hand as research moves forward.

What I find especially interesting with the yataghan as far as origins, is just how far into antiquity its form goes. The flared disc or eared pommel goes back to Bronze Age forms from Luristan, and of course variations into the evolution of yataghans in more recent times as well as the cleft pommel hilts of shashka and various other such hilts. In most cases trying to firmly connect these features is somewhat tenuous, but always worthy of continued study.

[mankova]

In referring to yataghans' origin, do you mean as specifically to classification of the examples in the book as to regional attribution?

Don't really know yet... I'm already searching for similar examples (form and the year) to see where are they mostly from and it really looks balkan. Especially those rivets on the light hilt with pretty large ears and leaf-shaped decoration of the blade.

Do you know this page? It;s a catalogue of THE ARMS AND ARMOURY COLLECTION from Croatian History Museum in Zagreb
http://jatagani.hismus.hr/webe/hld/katknj.htm

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mankova

Don't really know yet... I'm already searching for similar examples (form and the year) to see where are they mostly from and it really looks balkan. Especially those rivets on the light hilt with pretty large ears and leaf-shaped decoration of the blade.

Do you know this page? It;s a catalogue of THE ARMS AND ARMOURY COLLECTION from Croatian History Museum in Zagreb
http://jatagani.hismus.hr/webe/hld/katknj.htm

Actually I had not seen this, and it is most impressive as well as it appears quite comprehensive.
I am sure you are familiar with the late Professor Zdzislaw Zygulski, who was one of your greatest scholars of arms and armour. Of his many great works, he wrote "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Their Provenance" (in "Islamic Arms & Armour", ed. Robert Elgood, 1979).
He was of course curator of the famed Czartoryski Museum until his passing in 2015.

I am glad to see these two yataghans being conserved, and to see this sincere approach to their history as well as more on the history of this weapon form overall.
The best thing about restoration of weapons in these conservatory conditions is that it is done carefully and with appropriate restraint as possible. That is to preserve patination and focus on stabilizing any corrosion or active deterioration and replacing components only as necessary.

[mankova]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am sure you are familiar with the late Professor Zdzislaw Zygulski, who was one of your greatest scholars of arms and armour. Of his many great works, he wrote "Islamic Weapons in Polish Collections and Their Provenance" (in "Islamic Arms & Armour", ed. Robert Elgood, 1979).
He was of course curator of the famed Czartoryski Museum until his passing in 2015.

Yes, even after his death, he's still a great authority. I have few of his books He was teaching at my university, but i was too young to know him.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am glad to see these two yataghans being conserved, and to see this sincere approach to their history as well as more on the history of this weapon form overall.
The best thing about restoration of weapons in these conservatory conditions is that it is done carefully and with appropriate restraint as possible. That is to preserve patination and focus on stabilizing any corrosion or active deterioration and replacing components only as necessary.

I will add some photos in progress and after conservation They belong to the museum, and they age, patina must be preserved. It's also very important to stabilize corrosion process like You said. Not only the final effect, but whole process is the very best part of this work


Independently from the conservation process, i will make some trials with old techniques in non-antique materials. I think it's a good way to know yataghans better
I really enjoy casting metals, sculpting in various materials, so this might be another very developing experience.


I'm very excited

[ALEX]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

... these Yataghans appear to be from the Balkans (most likely Bosnia). ...

I also believe they are from Bosnia. The hilt decorations and silver overlay are indicative of that and similar to more common decorations on typical Bosnian knives like THIS ONE

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ALEX

I also believe they are from Bosnia. The hilt decorations and silver overlay are indicative of that and similar to more common decorations on typical Bosnian knives like THIS ONE

I said "Sarajevo"
Why I have this feeling that nobody is listening to me?
Even my wife and my dog are not listening to me...