A cup hilt rapier for id.

[Jim McDougall]

Exactly! Who can forget the many discussions trying to figure out the mysteries of the small tulwar grip sizes on Indian swords and the so called 'Indian ricasso' on the blade near hilt. It seems it was finally noted about the European swordsmanship manner of wrapping finger around quillon.
Just as with the tulwars, it does seem the grip area on these rapiers were often quite small relative to the hand size, so these kinds of adjustments were understandable, unless ya had real small hands.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... it does seem the grip area on these rapiers were often quite small relative to the hand size, so these kinds of adjustments were understandable, unless ya had real small hands.

But while short grips in Indian swords were a (sort of) standard situation, i believe the majority of cup hilt swords grips had normal lengths, notwithstanding relatively short ones were so because as, the manner to hold the sword with finger/s wraping the front section, would not need them to be made larger. Still you have extreme situations, where pondering on such fashion results in examples like the one attached, where only three fingers could hold the actual grip. The civilian that owned this sword was certainly a short fellow, its blade only measuring 83 cms.

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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

But while short grips in Indian swords were a (sort of) standard situation, i believe the majority of cup hilt swords grips had normal lengths, notwithstanding relatively short ones were so because as, the manner to hold the sword with finger/s wraping the front section, would not need them to be made larger. Still you have extreme situations, where pondering on such fashion results in examples like the one attached, where only three fingers could hold the actual grip. The civilian that owned this sword was certainly a short fellow, its blade only measuring 83 cms.

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Well observed, and good insight toward these situational matters in cuphilts. As you say, the Indian situation was far more 'standardized' as clearly the general size of Indian hands was of course smaller as a rule. This was indeed so much so that even British production of swords for native forces had 'Indian' pattern regulation swords with smaller hilts .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... as clearly the general size of Indian hands was of course smaller as a rule ...

Or just slender (say slim), that not necessarily smaller; something also (or more) plausible .

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

Or just slender (say slim), that not necessarily smaller; something also (or more) plausible .

Indeed, the idea of an entire pattern of sword hilt adapted en masse to accommodate an entire ethnic group seems patently implausible, however that circumstance is noted in references on British military swords as I mentioned (I believe it was "British Military Swords" by Robson).

As well noted by Philip, this cup hilt does seem to have been afforded some custom or commissioned attention, and the undulating (flamberge) blade something of a novelty. While notably speculative, I would suggest that these kinds of blades are typically regarded as more of a parade or ceremonial type feature, and that such blades are recorded in various Biblical instances, in guarding the 'Gates of Paradise'. This is sometimes associated with Masonic regalia such as the 'Tylers' sword which is often recorded as 'a wavy blade'.
Just a suggestion OK. Many Spanish military orders of course employed these kinds of symbolism.

[fernando]

As i recently came across with an example in a local fellow collector and will also refer the collection where the above posted sword came from, waving blades in cup hilts (and sail hilts) are not so uncommon; and with the same typical inscriptions as those straight ones: IN MENE, IN SOLINGEN, PUGNO PRO PATRIA, CROSS AND ORB symbol; even some of them rather lenghty, so in line with the same operational attitude.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Indeed, the idea of an entire pattern of sword hilt adapted en masse to accommodate an entire ethnic group seems patently implausible, however that circumstance is noted in references on British military swords as I mentioned (I believe it was "British Military Swords" by Robson)...

For what it is worth, this aspect is also approached by Rainer Daehnhardt in his written works, where he mentions that Portuguese could not hold Indian talwars, due to their short grip.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

For what it is worth, this aspect is also approached by Rainer Daehnhardt in his written works, where he mentions that Portuguese could not hold Indian talwars, due to their short grip.

The references from Mr. Daehnhardt are highly important in my opinion, and worth a great deal. Thank you Fernando.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

But while short grips in Indian swords were a (sort of) standard situation, i believe the majority of cup hilt swords grips had normal lengths, notwithstanding relatively short ones were so because as, the manner to hold the sword with finger/s wraping the front section, would not need them to be made larger.

.

Fernando, you have an interesting sword here... blade ground to a "flamberge" profile, and the unusually short grip. Note that the knucklebow extends further back at its finial than the length of the grip would warrant -- it seems to be of "normal" size which makes me wonder if this was a rapier assembled by a cutler specifically for a customer of very short stature, using everything of standard size but cutting the tang down accordingly, or else it was a sword that started out typical but which was modified after-the-fact, some time later in its working life. Either way, it's an intriguing example for study.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

Fernando, you have an interesting sword here...

Pity this one is not mine; actualy it belonged in a collection from which i have bought a couple examples ... but not this one.

Originally Posted by Philip

... Note that the knucklebow extends further back at its finial than the length of the grip would warrant -- it seems to be of "normal" size

A detail i confess i have overlooked .

Originally Posted by Philip

which makes me wonder if this was a rapier assembled by a cutler specifically for a customer of very short stature, using everything of standard size but cutting the tang down accordingly, or else it was a sword that started out typical but which was modified after-the-fact, some time later in its working life.

But then, one may wonder why, having to shorten the grip, at whatever stage, why not adjusting the knucklebow accordingly ?

Originally Posted by Philip

Either way, it's an intriguing example for study...

Indeed.