A Modified Sword, but what is it now ?

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 01:37 PM

As always I found the above comments informative and interesting;the possible Russian association and in particular the possibility of it being a trophy piece and the recent handle replacements.
First, let me say that I think that this is a real fighting weapon.It has already been mentioned that the blade length is a bit too long for a hunting cutlass.It has been sharpened (it looks to be arsenal done), as I have seen on many bayonets; the upper two- thirds and the back spine(1/3), has also been sharpened.
Another clue was given to me with the Russian association and the possibility of it being a captured piece. While it may not be Russian, it certainly could be Balkan.
The statement that got me thinking the most was Jim's assertion that the handle was a recent replacement; this I must admit, I did not realize, however, what had struck me were the screws/rivets that held the handles on.I had seen these before, on a modern(pre -1919), Turkish sword.
So now for my flawed, highly improbable conclusion/ theory ; I believe that the sword could be Ottoman Turk, circa 1880 to 1919. To summarize, we have a trophy, captured repurposed blade, too long to be a cutlass, sharpened for fighting, with what I believe not to be replacement handles(I think the handles are as old as the reconfigured piece, late 19th to early 20th century;they are just too well fitted to the piece), with what I believe to be pre-WW1 rivets/screws that I have seen on other modern Turkish swords.

corrado26 · 29th October 2016, 02:28 PM

The mark on the blade's back is probably be the socalled Rose of Solingen and the "A" and "K" might stand for Abraham Kratz or Abraham Kirschbaum.
corrado26

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 02:52 PM

Thanks for the information.The sword maker Abraham Kirshbaum was founded in 1883, so that could conform to my timeline and the Germans were allied with the Turks in WW1, so that certainly could be the original source of the blade.

corrado26 · 29th October 2016, 04:09 PM

No, that's not correct. Abraham Kirschbaum is already mentioned in 1795. But in 1883 the Kirschbaum firm was united with the firm o the Brothers Weyersberg to Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Co. So the "AK" is at least 100 years earlier.
The decoration of the blade is certainly from the mid to the end of the 18th century.
corrado26

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 04:15 PM

Thank you for the correction.

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2016, 07:20 PM

I really need to be more careful in use of the term modern referring to weapon descriptions. For me that means anything in latter 19th well into 20th c.
The use of wood, and well crafted into essentially a 'karabela' style hilt is I keeping with the popularity of these type hilts in hunting swords as well as parade or dress swords. The style itself is believed to have originated in Ottoman regions, but became so popular in Poland that it became regarded as an iconic sword there as a parade level sword (though certainly used in combat also).
The style quickly transmitted into other European regions as well, in many cases likely through Ottoman influence.

It was extremely common for European swords to follow 'exotic' style, with it seems most cases leaning toward the omnipresent Ottoman influences long established much earlier and in colonial regions of other countries.
A good example is the mameluke hilts of campaigns in Egypt, which became fashionable on officers swords.

In my opinion, this blade is likely of Napoleonic period (early 19th to first quarter), as the blued panel suggests to me, as well as the styling of the scabbard and mounts. The blade shape in the tip recalls Solingen made blades of that period.

Clearly what appears to be flourished arms which is now under the collar of the hilt, shows of course the blade has been remounted. I am not sure that the AK is necessarily the initials of a maker, however there was an entry for an A and F Kirschbaum of Solingen 1814-62 (this suggests two individuals). It is noted they made sabres for Austrian hussar regiments.

Without further checking into references at this point, that would fit well into some of the ideas here. Austria was heavily influenced by Ottoman styles through its use of Balkan troops in the 18th century, and perhaps such a sabre might have been refitted in much later times as a heirloom. This might have been in recognition of the famed Pandour units of those times which became well known as auxiliary regiments through the 19th c.

Corrado, I am very interested in your comment on the flourish on the back of the blade you note as the rose of Solingen, can you elaborate more?

corrado26 · 30th October 2016, 08:55 AM

The flourish on the back of blades made in Solingen in the 18th century often show the signs shown in the fotos. Until today it is unknown what this mark/sign stands for, one thinks that it is a kind of Solingen quality proof mark.
corrado26

30th October 2016, 08:55 AM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,239	The flourish on the back of blades made in Solingen in the 18th century often show the signs shown in the fotos. Until today it is unknown what this mark/sign stands for, one thinks that it is a kind of Solingen quality proof mark. corrado26 Attached Images

29th October 2016, 01:37 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,281	As always I found the above comments informative and interesting;the possible Russian association and in particular the possibility of it being a trophy piece and the recent handle replacements. First, let me say that I think that this is a real fighting weapon.It has already been mentioned that the blade length is a bit too long for a hunting cutlass.It has been sharpened (it looks to be arsenal done), as I have seen on many bayonets; the upper two- thirds and the back spine(1/3), has also been sharpened. Another clue was given to me with the Russian association and the possibility of it being a captured piece. While it may not be Russian, it certainly could be Balkan. The statement that got me thinking the most was Jim's assertion that the handle was a recent replacement; this I must admit, I did not realize, however, what had struck me were the screws/rivets that held the handles on.I had seen these before, on a modern(pre -1919), Turkish sword. So now for my flawed, highly improbable conclusion/ theory ; I believe that the sword could be Ottoman Turk, circa 1880 to 1919. To summarize, we have a trophy, captured repurposed blade, too long to be a cutlass, sharpened for fighting, with what I believe not to be replacement handles(I think the handles are as old as the reconfigured piece, late 19th to early 20th century;they are just too well fitted to the piece), with what I believe to be pre-WW1 rivets/screws that I have seen on other modern Turkish swords.

29th October 2016, 02:28 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,239	The mark on the blade's back is probably be the socalled Rose of Solingen and the "A" and "K" might stand for Abraham Kratz or Abraham Kirschbaum. corrado26

29th October 2016, 02:52 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,281	Thanks for the information.The sword maker Abraham Kirshbaum was founded in 1883, so that could conform to my timeline and the Germans were allied with the Turks in WW1, so that certainly could be the original source of the blade.

29th October 2016, 04:09 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,239	No, that's not correct. Abraham Kirschbaum is already mentioned in 1795. But in 1883 the Kirschbaum firm was united with the firm o the Brothers Weyersberg to Weyersberg, Kirschbaum & Co. So the "AK" is at least 100 years earlier. The decoration of the blade is certainly from the mid to the end of the 18th century. corrado26

29th October 2016, 04:15 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,281	Thank you for the correction.

29th October 2016, 07:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,585	I really need to be more careful in use of the term modern referring to weapon descriptions. For me that means anything in latter 19th well into 20th c. The use of wood, and well crafted into essentially a 'karabela' style hilt is I keeping with the popularity of these type hilts in hunting swords as well as parade or dress swords. The style itself is believed to have originated in Ottoman regions, but became so popular in Poland that it became regarded as an iconic sword there as a parade level sword (though certainly used in combat also). The style quickly transmitted into other European regions as well, in many cases likely through Ottoman influence. It was extremely common for European swords to follow 'exotic' style, with it seems most cases leaning toward the omnipresent Ottoman influences long established much earlier and in colonial regions of other countries. A good example is the mameluke hilts of campaigns in Egypt, which became fashionable on officers swords. In my opinion, this blade is likely of Napoleonic period (early 19th to first quarter), as the blued panel suggests to me, as well as the styling of the scabbard and mounts. The blade shape in the tip recalls Solingen made blades of that period. Clearly what appears to be flourished arms which is now under the collar of the hilt, shows of course the blade has been remounted. I am not sure that the AK is necessarily the initials of a maker, however there was an entry for an A and F Kirschbaum of Solingen 1814-62 (this suggests two individuals). It is noted they made sabres for Austrian hussar regiments. Without further checking into references at this point, that would fit well into some of the ideas here. Austria was heavily influenced by Ottoman styles through its use of Balkan troops in the 18th century, and perhaps such a sabre might have been refitted in much later times as a heirloom. This might have been in recognition of the famed Pandour units of those times which became well known as auxiliary regiments through the 19th c. Corrado, I am very interested in your comment on the flourish on the back of the blade you note as the rose of Solingen, can you elaborate more?