Two kerisses compared

Johan van Zyl · 23rd October 2016, 12:54 PM

Kai, David & Alan, I am indebted to you for your willingness to share your understanding with me on these points. I had been a little bit afraid some forumites might think my questions were a poorly disguised request for a monetary evaluation - which it definitively was not. Happily, no-one thought that.

Your well-reasoned comments are as much as I expected - it would have been very naive of me to have expected that someone be prepared to declare the Java keris come from the first third of the nineteenth century, and the Bugis from dead centre!

However, I must then conclude that "nineteenth century" is as close as I should go for both.

On all your other comments I can only say they make a lot of sense to me. I am a collector/historian/writer, but hasten to say this is all "hobby". I have never done these things full-time. I collect things that are old and interesting, study the history behind them, and write up what I find. Examples: a Roman sestertius, a Fairbairn-Sykes commando knife, a Nepalese villager kukri with a box-sheath, a Voortrekker flintlock musket, a uniform of the WW II British Long Range Desert Group, a fossil shell from the Cretaceous period, a WW I service medal awarded to a SA Cape Coloured Corps soldier, a Mills bomb and 3" mortar grenade (deactivated), a novel printed in 1734 by Madam de Gomez, and an 1872 handwritten copy of the book of Job in metrical paraphrase by John Brigg. VIVA LA DIFFERENCE you will say! I have quite a few more.

You see, the two kerisses have given me much to study, and your help has been incaculable.

Still I am confused as to the names used in describing the keris sheath. The T-shaped piece is called the warangka, the wooden centrepiece is called the gandar, the metal oversheath is called the pendok, the end-piece is called the buntut (depending on the type of keris and where applicable). Other Indonesian languages give different names.

BUT, is there a name/word for the WHOLE sheath (all sheath parts viewed together)?
Cheers
Johan

Jean · 23rd October 2016, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johan van Zyl

Still I am confused as to the names used in describing the keris sheath. The T-shaped piece is called the warangka, the wooden centrepiece is called the gandar, the metal oversheath is called the pendok, the end-piece is called the buntut (depending on the type of keris and where applicable). Other Indonesian languages give different names.

BUT, is there a name/word for the WHOLE sheath (all sheath parts viewed together)?
Cheers
Johan

Hello Johan,
Yes, it is confusing. The name of the T-shape piece (crosspiece) of the sheath has a specific name in some islands (sampir in Sulawesi or Sumatra, angkup in Lombok, etc.) but is just called warangka in other areas.
And warangka is the generic name for the whole scabbard, with again some specific names in some islands (wanua in Sulawesi for instance).
Other opinions are welcome on this delicate subject.
Regards

David · 23rd October 2016, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Johan,
Yes, it is confusing. The name of the T-shape piece (crosspiece) of the sheath has a specific name in some islands (sampir in Sulawesi or Sumatra, angkup in Lombok, etc.) but is just called warangka in other areas.
And warangka is the generic name for the whole scabbard, with again some specific names in some islands (wanua in Sulawesi for instance).
Other opinions are welcome on this delicate subject.
Regards

To add to the confusion you will also find different spellings of certain words. For instance, i prefer the spelling "wrongko" because it is my understanding that it is closer to the way the word is actually pronounced in Javanese.
And again, keep in mind that while the national language of Indonesia is Bahasa Indonesian all these islands also have their own languages. Indonesia is not one unified culture. It is made up of many different groups of people.
Javanese terms are often used to describe keris parts in general even though each of these separate cultures may have different terms for the same parts. This is probably because we can pretty much trace the origins of the keris back to Jawa.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd October 2016, 10:34 PM

Throughout Indonesia, the more general word for the keris scabbard is "sarung", which is the traditional garment used by men and women to cover the lower body, actually just a length of cloth that is wound around the body for women, or a tube of cloth for a man. The use of this word for the keris scabbard is an indication of the philosophical relationship between the keris and a man.

The word "sarung" is correct usage in Bahasa Indonesia, the word "wrangka" is correct usage in Javanese.

In Jawa the word used by the vast bulk of keris conscious people is "wrangka", in Javanese the "a" in this word is pronounced as an "o", but the sound is made in the back of the throat, not the front, so the usual way we write the word is "wrongko", as David has advised.

In old publications we see the "a" in this word with a small dot over it, indicating the pronunciation, but with modern typewriters this dot was unable to be applied, so just the "a" was used, and the only way in which to know the pronunciation was to be able to speak the language.

The general population of Jawa, especially those people of later generations and those who are not keris conscious still seem to mostly use "sarung", rather than "wrangka".

The dictionary correct version of "wrangka" is "warangka", however the spellings "wrangka" and "rangka" are also listed in most Javanese dictionaries.
In my experience, the only time I have heard the pronunciation "warangka" is in a situation where somebody is trying to impress somebody else with his status or erudition.

The word "wrangka" correctly refers to the entire scabbard, including the gandar, but it is used loosely to refer to only the top section of the scabbard also. The top section of the scabbard is correctly named as the "gambar" (this word also means "picture"), but most of the craftsmen who actually make these scabbards call it the "atasan", which simply means "top".

The words "warangka" and "wrangka" appear in Old Javanese, and in this language they have the alternate meaning of an enclosure in which to keep livestock --- stable, yard, coop --- or a nest. Colloquially the word can also imply a prison.

A derivative of the word "wrangka" in Modern Javanese is "wrangkaning ratu", which can be loosely translated as "the ruler's protection", which in turn equates to the rank of patih, which can be understood as the ruler's chief councillor, or vice-regent, or prime minister; this usage does not seem to appear in Old Javanese, whilst the word "wrangka" for "scabbard" does appear, thus the usage associated with a court comes from the usage associated with a keris, not the other way around. Again a philosophical association between the keris and a man, in this case a ruler, is shown.

The lower part of the keris scabbard is named the "gandar", the alternate meaning of "gandar" is "something that forms a fine/good straight line", so here gandar is simply a description that through common usage has become a name, The word "gandar" does not seem to appear in Old Javanese.

The above is only a very brief and simplified explanation of the keris scabbard, when we get into the names of the various characteristics/parts/sections of the scabbard it gets considerably more complex.

Jean · 24th October 2016, 09:18 AM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your very informative reply!

Regards

Johan van Zyl · 24th October 2016, 03:18 PM

Friends, in concluding this thread I take pleasure in sharing with you a pic of the box I made for my Javanese keris and sheath. Although I am not a carpenter and do not have proper tools, I have enough to allow me to do this sort of thing. It was not easy, and I found I was hard to please! The box itself came out satisfactorilly the first time round, but I had to redo the inner case and red cover material, as I had gone about it the wrong way and it sucked. The pic should show that the job came out tolerably well. Still, I suppose the contents would have been deserving of a much nicer box!

The Bugis keris will get an identical box and innard, but first I will have to make a wrongko for it, and a buntut.

Now the final two pics....... dare I say here will be something to whet your appetites and lead to another bit of stimulating conversation? We know that keris blades are made with a pattern we call pamor, and that the easier pamor to accomplish is the form we call mlumah. We know the definition of mlumah. We also know what pamor miring is, and how it differs from the former. Now where do shapes similar to pamor mlumah and miring occur in NATURE? See the two pics for one possible answer.

Banded Ironstone is a sedimentary rock consisting of alternating layers of iron oxides and shale. I've had this sample in my possession for a long time. In the pics the layers are but millimetres in thickness. It seemed to me to be a natural representation of the patterns that had been crafted by the empus. The one pic shows the rock sample viewed from the top, as in "pamor mlumah", and the next viewed from the side, as in "pamor miring".

This observation struck me as being quite interesting, and perhaps worthy of sharing with you guys. Whether you agree, remains to be seen, but I have confidence.
Cheers
Johan

A. G. Maisey · 24th October 2016, 09:35 PM

Since we're doing this Indonesian thing, maybe we should consider the relationship between pamor mlumah, pamor miring and Kue Lapis.

Ki Empu gets tired of pounding iron and getting burnt, orders wife to fix him some coffee and cake.

Wife whips up some Kopi Tubruk & Kue Lapis.

Ki Empu eats so much of it that when he goes back to work he's feeling a little bit crook in the guts, makes a mess of of the job he had on the go and has to twist the forging to make it stick together.

And that brothers & sisters is the true story of how pamor miring was discovered.

All because of this:-

23rd October 2016, 10:34 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	addition Throughout Indonesia, the more general word for the keris scabbard is "sarung", which is the traditional garment used by men and women to cover the lower body, actually just a length of cloth that is wound around the body for women, or a tube of cloth for a man. The use of this word for the keris scabbard is an indication of the philosophical relationship between the keris and a man. The word "sarung" is correct usage in Bahasa Indonesia, the word "wrangka" is correct usage in Javanese. In Jawa the word used by the vast bulk of keris conscious people is "wrangka", in Javanese the "a" in this word is pronounced as an "o", but the sound is made in the back of the throat, not the front, so the usual way we write the word is "wrongko", as David has advised. In old publications we see the "a" in this word with a small dot over it, indicating the pronunciation, but with modern typewriters this dot was unable to be applied, so just the "a" was used, and the only way in which to know the pronunciation was to be able to speak the language. The general population of Jawa, especially those people of later generations and those who are not keris conscious still seem to mostly use "sarung", rather than "wrangka". The dictionary correct version of "wrangka" is "warangka", however the spellings "wrangka" and "rangka" are also listed in most Javanese dictionaries. In my experience, the only time I have heard the pronunciation "warangka" is in a situation where somebody is trying to impress somebody else with his status or erudition. The word "wrangka" correctly refers to the entire scabbard, including the gandar, but it is used loosely to refer to only the top section of the scabbard also. The top section of the scabbard is correctly named as the "gambar" (this word also means "picture"), but most of the craftsmen who actually make these scabbards call it the "atasan", which simply means "top". The words "warangka" and "wrangka" appear in Old Javanese, and in this language they have the alternate meaning of an enclosure in which to keep livestock --- stable, yard, coop --- or a nest. Colloquially the word can also imply a prison. A derivative of the word "wrangka" in Modern Javanese is "wrangkaning ratu", which can be loosely translated as "the ruler's protection", which in turn equates to the rank of patih, which can be understood as the ruler's chief councillor, or vice-regent, or prime minister; this usage does not seem to appear in Old Javanese, whilst the word "wrangka" for "scabbard" does appear, thus the usage associated with a court comes from the usage associated with a keris, not the other way around. Again a philosophical association between the keris and a man, in this case a ruler, is shown. The lower part of the keris scabbard is named the "gandar", the alternate meaning of "gandar" is "something that forms a fine/good straight line", so here gandar is simply a description that through common usage has become a name, The word "gandar" does not seem to appear in Old Javanese. The above is only a very brief and simplified explanation of the keris scabbard, when we get into the names of the various characteristics/parts/sections of the scabbard it gets considerably more complex. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 24th October 2016 at 11:43 AM.

24th October 2016, 03:18 PM	#6
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Friends, in concluding this thread I take pleasure in sharing with you a pic of the box I made for my Javanese keris and sheath. Although I am not a carpenter and do not have proper tools, I have enough to allow me to do this sort of thing. It was not easy, and I found I was hard to please! The box itself came out satisfactorilly the first time round, but I had to redo the inner case and red cover material, as I had gone about it the wrong way and it sucked. The pic should show that the job came out tolerably well. Still, I suppose the contents would have been deserving of a much nicer box! The Bugis keris will get an identical box and innard, but first I will have to make a wrongko for it, and a buntut. Now the final two pics....... dare I say here will be something to whet your appetites and lead to another bit of stimulating conversation? We know that keris blades are made with a pattern we call pamor, and that the easier pamor to accomplish is the form we call mlumah. We know the definition of mlumah. We also know what pamor miring is, and how it differs from the former. Now where do shapes similar to pamor mlumah and miring occur in NATURE? See the two pics for one possible answer. Banded Ironstone is a sedimentary rock consisting of alternating layers of iron oxides and shale. I've had this sample in my possession for a long time. In the pics the layers are but millimetres in thickness. It seemed to me to be a natural representation of the patterns that had been crafted by the empus. The one pic shows the rock sample viewed from the top, as in "pamor mlumah", and the next viewed from the side, as in "pamor miring". This observation struck me as being quite interesting, and perhaps worthy of sharing with you guys. Whether you agree, remains to be seen, but I have confidence. Cheers Johan Attached Images

24th October 2016, 09:35 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Since we're doing this Indonesian thing, maybe we should consider the relationship between pamor mlumah, pamor miring and Kue Lapis. Ki Empu gets tired of pounding iron and getting burnt, orders wife to fix him some coffee and cake. Wife whips up some Kopi Tubruk & Kue Lapis. Ki Empu eats so much of it that when he goes back to work he's feeling a little bit crook in the guts, makes a mess of of the job he had on the go and has to twist the forging to make it stick together. And that brothers & sisters is the true story of how pamor miring was discovered. All because of this:- Attached Images

23rd October 2016, 12:54 PM	#1
Johan van Zyl Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: I live in Gordon's Bay, a village in the Western Cape Province in South Africa. Posts: 126	Kai, David & Alan, I am indebted to you for your willingness to share your understanding with me on these points. I had been a little bit afraid some forumites might think my questions were a poorly disguised request for a monetary evaluation - which it definitively was not. Happily, no-one thought that. Your well-reasoned comments are as much as I expected - it would have been very naive of me to have expected that someone be prepared to declare the Java keris come from the first third of the nineteenth century, and the Bugis from dead centre! However, I must then conclude that "nineteenth century" is as close as I should go for both. On all your other comments I can only say they make a lot of sense to me. I am a collector/historian/writer, but hasten to say this is all "hobby". I have never done these things full-time. I collect things that are old and interesting, study the history behind them, and write up what I find. Examples: a Roman sestertius, a Fairbairn-Sykes commando knife, a Nepalese villager kukri with a box-sheath, a Voortrekker flintlock musket, a uniform of the WW II British Long Range Desert Group, a fossil shell from the Cretaceous period, a WW I service medal awarded to a SA Cape Coloured Corps soldier, a Mills bomb and 3" mortar grenade (deactivated), a novel printed in 1734 by Madam de Gomez, and an 1872 handwritten copy of the book of Job in metrical paraphrase by John Brigg. VIVA LA DIFFERENCE you will say! I have quite a few more. You see, the two kerisses have given me much to study, and your help has been incaculable. Still I am confused as to the names used in describing the keris sheath. The T-shaped piece is called the warangka, the wooden centrepiece is called the gandar, the metal oversheath is called the pendok, the end-piece is called the buntut (depending on the type of keris and where applicable). Other Indonesian languages give different names. BUT, is there a name/word for the WHOLE sheath (all sheath parts viewed together)? Cheers Johan

24th October 2016, 09:18 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your very informative reply! Regards