Research help needed please!

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 05:15 PM

Hi Jim

I would agree that the example Kate shows us may well function as a talisman, it does not appear to be a currency piece and the purposely crude forging must express something as the crudity is atypical of Congo metalwork. Also the dressing up of such a crude looking spear head does seem to suggest an occult value. Tim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 05:31 PM

I spoke to some people who are also doing my course and they said it could be used as an arrow?
I don't really know.

A lot of people have been saying it could be just for rituals etc.

I wish there was a book on tribes and their weapons and what they look like, just a general overview!

What I have found out so far is this:
The head is iron
The head and shaft are attached through the metalwork being tightly pushed around the cane.
The wire is galvanised zinc.
The shaft is cane - i think - and has been broken at the end.

That is as much as I have personally found out!

The research into it is really interesting but of all the websites I've been on I haven't seen anything like it at all!

There aren't any markings on it anywhere but you can see how the head has been forged (is that right?) to give it the flatness.

Many thanks for your feedback, I hope we can find out where its from in the end!!!

Kate

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 05:43 PM

Trying to find the exact "tribal" group may be stretching things a little, I think it is pretty sound to say it is a ritual piece for the Congo which narrows it down to an area roughly the size of western Europe. Try the search facility here, you should find other ritual spears, I have post a few of mine here

. I think if this is your first dip in the waters then you have done very well. I think you are hooked. Tim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 05:47 PM

Yes, you're right - I think I'm getting hooked!
I've always loved stuff like this but never knew where to start and we needed to get something to work on for our current unit at university and I saw this!
Do you have any idea how much it would be worth? I bought it for £12, is that reasonable?

Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it!

Kate

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 05:53 PM

oooooo! no, no, we do not talk money here. lets just say for what it is and the condition, you got a real bargin. Be sure to post any other interesting things you find. Tim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 05:55 PM

eek! Sorry, I didn't realise! I'm new! Sorry

Just looking at the ritual stuff, theres some good things on here!

Jim McDougall · 20th February 2006, 05:59 PM

Thanks very much Tim, the more I look at this the more I think of Congo as well, and especially the talismanic possibilities.

Kate,
I'm with you, I wish there was a simple book to concisely show us each tribe and exactly which weapons were used by each. However in ethnographic weapons study nothing is ever simple. By thier very nature, tribal people move, diffuse and are constantly in varying degrees of change and movement, still maintaining key traditions tempered by encroaching or encountered influences. In Africa, there is a considerable degree of artistic license and symbolic application to weapons, thus the wide range of variation in the forms of weapons used, and as you have noted, depending on the intended use.
Spears come in many sizes and are used in numerous ways, so many shafted weapons of larger size mistaken for spears are often actually employed as arrows. This is more typical of Oceanic weaponry, especially that of Melanesia
(see "Arrows of Melanesia: A Neglected Art Form" by David Skinner, in "Tribal Arts" , Summer 2000, Vol.VI, #2, pp.86-99). The heading of the article notes, "...they're not spears".

As we always say here, 'more research is needed', so we'll keep looking

All the best,
Jim

Katius · 20th February 2006, 07:57 PM

Thanks for that Jim, I'm going to the Library tomorrow so I might find something there, if I find anything I'll post it on here.

Do you know any online valuation services?
I have to include the general value in my report for it...

Many thanks

Kate

Tim Simmons · 20th February 2006, 08:10 PM

Kate you have a private message.

Katius · 21st February 2006, 12:13 AM

Thanks Tim!

Katius · 21st February 2006, 05:32 PM

Hi,
I was looking through a website to see if there was anything remotely like my spear, found something;
I'm going to have a look at that specific tribe and see if I can find anything else!!!

Kate

Mark · 21st February 2006, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kate,
I'm with you, I wish there was a simple book to concisely show us each tribe and exactly which weapons were used by each.

Er ... you could write one, Jim. You're pretty consistently the most knowledgeable forumite on African weapons.

Katius · 21st February 2006, 11:18 PM

Hey, thanks for all that info! I really should have read that - Sorry!!!
Still searching!!!
Thanks
kate

21st February 2006, 05:32 PM	#11
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Similar Found . . . Hi, I was looking through a website to see if there was anything remotely like my spear, found something; I'm going to have a look at that specific tribe and see if I can find anything else!!! Kate Last edited by Katius; 21st February 2006 at 05:59 PM.

21st February 2006, 11:18 PM	#13
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Thanks! Hey, thanks for all that info! I really should have read that - Sorry!!! Still searching!!! Thanks kate

20th February 2006, 05:15 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	Hi Jim I would agree that the example Kate shows us may well function as a talisman, it does not appear to be a currency piece and the purposely crude forging must express something as the crudity is atypical of Congo metalwork. Also the dressing up of such a crude looking spear head does seem to suggest an occult value. Tim

20th February 2006, 05:31 PM	#2
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	I spoke to some people who are also doing my course and they said it could be used as an arrow? I don't really know. A lot of people have been saying it could be just for rituals etc. I wish there was a book on tribes and their weapons and what they look like, just a general overview! What I have found out so far is this: The head is iron The head and shaft are attached through the metalwork being tightly pushed around the cane. The wire is galvanised zinc. The shaft is cane - i think - and has been broken at the end. That is as much as I have personally found out! The research into it is really interesting but of all the websites I've been on I haven't seen anything like it at all! There aren't any markings on it anywhere but you can see how the head has been forged (is that right?) to give it the flatness. Many thanks for your feedback, I hope we can find out where its from in the end!!! Kate

20th February 2006, 05:43 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	Trying to find the exact "tribal" group may be stretching things a little, I think it is pretty sound to say it is a ritual piece for the Congo which narrows it down to an area roughly the size of western Europe. Try the search facility here, you should find other ritual spears, I have post a few of mine here . I think if this is your first dip in the waters then you have done very well. I think you are hooked. Tim

20th February 2006, 05:47 PM	#4
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Yes, you're right - I think I'm getting hooked! I've always loved stuff like this but never knew where to start and we needed to get something to work on for our current unit at university and I saw this! Do you have any idea how much it would be worth? I bought it for £12, is that reasonable? Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it! Kate

20th February 2006, 05:53 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	oooooo! no, no, we do not talk money here. lets just say for what it is and the condition, you got a real bargin. Be sure to post any other interesting things you find. Tim

20th February 2006, 05:55 PM	#6
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	eek! Sorry, I didn't realise! I'm new! Sorry Just looking at the ritual stuff, theres some good things on here!

20th February 2006, 05:59 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,299	Thanks very much Tim, the more I look at this the more I think of Congo as well, and especially the talismanic possibilities. Kate, I'm with you, I wish there was a simple book to concisely show us each tribe and exactly which weapons were used by each. However in ethnographic weapons study nothing is ever simple. By thier very nature, tribal people move, diffuse and are constantly in varying degrees of change and movement, still maintaining key traditions tempered by encroaching or encountered influences. In Africa, there is a considerable degree of artistic license and symbolic application to weapons, thus the wide range of variation in the forms of weapons used, and as you have noted, depending on the intended use. Spears come in many sizes and are used in numerous ways, so many shafted weapons of larger size mistaken for spears are often actually employed as arrows. This is more typical of Oceanic weaponry, especially that of Melanesia (see "Arrows of Melanesia: A Neglected Art Form" by David Skinner, in "Tribal Arts" , Summer 2000, Vol.VI, #2, pp.86-99). The heading of the article notes, "...they're not spears". As we always say here, 'more research is needed', so we'll keep looking All the best, Jim

20th February 2006, 07:57 PM	#8
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Thanks for that Jim, I'm going to the Library tomorrow so I might find something there, if I find anything I'll post it on here. Do you know any online valuation services? I have to include the general value in my report for it... Many thanks Kate

20th February 2006, 08:10 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,856	Kate you have a private message.

21st February 2006, 12:13 AM	#10
Katius Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 14	Thanks Tim!