Lulu Celiko (or something else?)

Sajen · 20th October 2016, 12:37 PM

Hello Russel,

would agree, it seems to be a luju celiko. Why the handle curves to the wrong side I don't know, it's the normal curve a lopah petawaran show and it seems that this both types of knife are related. Wish you good luck that the handle is from suassa. Great and nice catch!

Regards,
Detlef

Ferguson · 20th October 2016, 04:43 PM

I thought it was a Rencong, because of the direction and 90 degree curve of the handle. But I could find no pictures of Rencong with that type of handle. Looking forward to finding out more. I put in a very small bid, as I wasn't sure what it was. Glad another forum member won it!
Steve

Sajen · 20th October 2016, 05:32 PM

Here the picture shown in in Van Zonneveld (p. 84), it's an old drawing, maybe the artist has done a mistake by the direction the handle show!? I assume Albert has taken this picture from a second source. Would be more as interesting to see other examples.

kai · 20th October 2016, 06:07 PM

Congrats, Russel, nice scoop!

IMHO, it is a luju celiko, indeed. I have one with a hilt in the same direction (pic to follow); AFAIK, Albert's account is based on a single source (Kreemer).

I'm ready to bet your's also suassa...

Regards,
Kai

Battara · 21st October 2016, 01:42 AM

I took a look at the pictures off eBay and, though hard to tell from the bad pictures, it does look like suassa to me. However, it would be best to get it tested by a jeweler to make sure.

kai · 21st October 2016, 02:14 AM

Here is my example; the scabbard is probably a later replacement. I haven't seen any rencong-style scabbard before - your's looks quite convincing though.

As with Lopah Petawaran, these seem to be ceremonial blades only. Both types are probably based in (Karo?) Batak and possibly old Gayo cultures; probably the concept dispersed northwards upon increased contacts between Gayo and Alas with Aceh: the rencong is related, of course.

BTW, the drawing is from Volz (usually reliable despite the sketches being a bit coarse): this example has 2 "crowns" (probably an integral bolster and another similar ring) at the base of the hilt as also found on some Lopah Petawaran and clearly a saruek ulat as found on some Gayo and a few Aceh status pieces; the scabbard might be Karo.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 21st October 2016, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Here is my example;

Hello Kai,

neat!

Seems to be a fairly old example with a much younger scabbard. Haven't seen Russel's example by ebay

but some other members, maybe good like this because a lulu celiko is on my wish list.

When I look again to the shown picture I am as well nearly sure that Russel will find that the handle is from suassa.

Regards,
Detlef

russel · 25th October 2016, 02:08 PM

Thanks everyone for the comments, I am very happy that my identification is confirmed.

After searching the forum, and Google, I have found no other examples than the two posted here. Can I conclude from this that these are rather scarce?

Mention has been made that these were ceremonial/ritual knives, does anyone have details of how they were used? Van Zonneveld writes only that they were worn by the groom at weddings.

Russel

DaveA · 24th November 2016, 10:00 AM

Hello,

Here is a sketch of a Hulu Dandan style hilt found on rencong in Sumatra. It is fairly rare. I think it may be a good match for your item. The Hulu Dandan was a high prestige hilt and this corresponds well with the triple crowns on your example.

This sketch is one I found on an Indonesian website years ago. That link no longer seems to be working.

Best,

Dave A.

mariusgmioc · 24th November 2016, 01:34 PM

Hello,

Not that I am a specialist in gold alloys but 14k is already gold, as gold is the base metal (14k I think means 14 parts pure gold in 24 parts total alloy).

I didn't think it can have such a copperish colour.

Very beautiful knife!

kai · 24th November 2016, 06:01 PM

Hello Dave,

Quote:

Here is a sketch of a Hulu Dandan style hilt found on rencong in Sumatra. It is fairly rare. I think it may be a good match for your item. The Hulu Dandan was a high prestige hilt and this corresponds well with the triple crowns on your example.

Hulu dandan tend to be on the big side of things (considering rencong hilts)!

The typical hilt for a luju celiko is the hulu paroh blesekan and these are considerably smaller (as are the ceremonial blades). There is not much published evidence and I'd really like to see more examples - hopefully the forumites can contribute a few more!

Russel's example has a somewhat smoother flow of lines while mine shows more clearly different parts of the hilt which seems to relate to the hulu dandan configuration. One could argue that hulu dandan, hulu paroh blesekan, and hulu jongo form a kind of continuum but I believe we should stick to the traditional definitions unless we have really good evidence to the contrary...

Regards,
Kai

20th October 2016, 05:32 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,213	Here the picture shown in in Van Zonneveld (p. 84), it's an old drawing, maybe the artist has done a mistake by the direction the handle show!? I assume Albert has taken this picture from a second source. Would be more as interesting to see other examples. Attached Images

21st October 2016, 02:14 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Here is my example; the scabbard is probably a later replacement. I haven't seen any rencong-style scabbard before - your's looks quite convincing though. As with Lopah Petawaran, these seem to be ceremonial blades only. Both types are probably based in (Karo?) Batak and possibly old Gayo cultures; probably the concept dispersed northwards upon increased contacts between Gayo and Alas with Aceh: the rencong is related, of course. BTW, the drawing is from Volz (usually reliable despite the sketches being a bit coarse): this example has 2 "crowns" (probably an integral bolster and another similar ring) at the base of the hilt as also found on some Lopah Petawaran and clearly a saruek ulat as found on some Gayo and a few Aceh status pieces; the scabbard might be Karo. Regards, Kai Attached Images

24th November 2016, 10:00 AM	#9
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 416	Hilt possibly Hulu Dandan Hello, Here is a sketch of a Hulu Dandan style hilt found on rencong in Sumatra. It is fairly rare. I think it may be a good match for your item. The Hulu Dandan was a high prestige hilt and this corresponds well with the triple crowns on your example. This sketch is one I found on an Indonesian website years ago. That link no longer seems to be working. Best, Dave A. Attached Images

24th November 2016, 01:34 PM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hello, Not that I am a specialist in gold alloys but 14k is already gold, as gold is the base metal (14k I think means 14 parts pure gold in 24 parts total alloy). I didn't think it can have such a copperish colour. Very beautiful knife! Last edited by mariusgmioc; 24th November 2016 at 01:51 PM.

20th October 2016, 12:37 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,213	Hello Russel, would agree, it seems to be a luju celiko. Why the handle curves to the wrong side I don't know, it's the normal curve a lopah petawaran show and it seems that this both types of knife are related. Wish you good luck that the handle is from suassa. Great and nice catch! Regards, Detlef

20th October 2016, 04:43 PM	#2
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I thought it was a Rencong, because of the direction and 90 degree curve of the handle. But I could find no pictures of Rencong with that type of handle. Looking forward to finding out more. I put in a very small bid, as I wasn't sure what it was. Glad another forum member won it! Steve

20th October 2016, 06:07 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Congrats, Russel, nice scoop! IMHO, it is a luju celiko, indeed. I have one with a hilt in the same direction (pic to follow); AFAIK, Albert's account is based on a single source (Kreemer). I'm ready to bet your's also suassa... Regards, Kai

21st October 2016, 01:42 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I took a look at the pictures off eBay and, though hard to tell from the bad pictures, it does look like suassa to me. However, it would be best to get it tested by a jeweler to make sure.

25th October 2016, 02:08 PM	#8
russel Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 236	Thanks everyone for the comments, I am very happy that my identification is confirmed. After searching the forum, and Google, I have found no other examples than the two posted here. Can I conclude from this that these are rather scarce? Mention has been made that these were ceremonial/ritual knives, does anyone have details of how they were used? Van Zonneveld writes only that they were worn by the groom at weddings. Russel