Afghan Pulowar blade type?

[ariel]

OK, just as an afterthought: re. " Afghani regulation khybers".
By definition, " regulation weapon" is a highly standardized one, manufactured in bulk, according to a design approved by a central authority and ( very often) at the same factory.
In short, a large mass of identical twins.
Here are two allegedly " regulation khybers"

One has two grooves, another has one. One blade has a stamp on the ricasso and is numbered another does not. One has a shield-like languet, another does not.The D-guards are of a different contours.

The conclusion is inescapable: there is nothing " regulation" here. Just a similar idea expressed in different " languages" with different parts including imported blades, with or without governmental stamps at a defined position.

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

[DaveS]

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

Hello Dave,

You are right... providing that you don't use a hand-held drilling machine fit with a milling cutter, or providing that you use a milling machine with good, not worn, vertical positioning control.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

I see nothing in common, perhaps they were a progression from the khyber knife but that does not make them related at all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The whole thing with these bayonet like hilted short swords is that they are primarily the product of a military arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul, and the only connection to the tribal 'salawar' sword is that a good number of these tribal swords were mounted with these military style hilts. The fact that the well known state seal with Mosque at Mazir I Sharif is seen on these in many cases, suggests that these may have been furbished in this manner for some of the tribal levys which served in auxiliary capacity with British Army in these regions.

This does not mean these were TRANSITIONAL, simply variations for such use.

It may be remembered that the great clue to the stamp on these weapons was due to someone spotting the stamp on Afghanistans coins being identical...and that the mistake in thinking they were done in an actual fictional other location.

Thus other than carrying a strike mark done at Kabul there is no link with these two weapons.

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
Please note that on of the two swords shown by me has an arsenal stamp and another does not ( it's other side is also blank, I was just saving space). Also look at post #64: there is such a bewildering variety of these swords that any idea of them being "regulation" or even made at the same place becomes improbable. Also note the absense of a langet on one of them. And, BTW, do we really know that ANY of them were made at Mashin Khana? Any documentary evidence of an approved design, manufacturing order or other written confirmation?



In any research endeavor assembly and verification of facts go first. Only if the facts are strong enough can one summarize them into a plausible idea. In this case it was done in reverse with fully predictable results. Reminds me of an old story about a renown sniper: each and every bullet hole was right in the center of a target. Only he shot first, and drew the " bullseye" around the hole later:-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
Please note that on of the two swords shown by me has an arsenal stamp and another does not ( it's other side is also blank, I was just saving space). Also look at post #64: there is such a bewildering variety of these swords that any idea of them being "regulation" or even made at the same place becomes improbable. Also note the absense of a langet on one of them. And, BTW, do we really know that ANY of them were made at Mashin Khana? Any documentary evidence of an approved design, manufacturing order or other written confirmation?



In any research endeavor assembly and verification of facts go first. Only if the facts are strong enough can one summarize them into a plausible idea. In this case it was done in reverse with fully predictable results. Reminds me of an old story about a renown sniper: each and every bullet hole was right in the center of a target. Only he shot first, and drew the " bullseye" around the hole later:-)

From http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afgh.../mashin-khana/ I Quote"
Mashin Khana

The state arsenal and factory in Kabul had a narrow gauge “portable railway” supplied by Leeds company John Fowler & Co.1 Fowler produced 60 cm gauge portable light railway equipment, initially under an agreement with French engineer Paul Decauville.

The Kabul factory known as the Mashin Khana (machine house) was established by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, with Englishman Thomas Salter Pyne as his engineering advisor. Pyne had previously been an overseas representative of Fowler, and later received British and Afghan honours for diplomatic work.

Books could probably be written both about the factory, which was the amir’s attempt to buy-in an industrial revolution, and about Salter Pyne himself. As it is, little has turned up about the railway so far."Unquote.

You describe well in your second paragraph the situation in and around the farcical accounting (corruption) in the Mashin Khana which having been imposed on the Kabul and Afghanistan population as a sort of social experiment actually destroyed almost entirely the Bazaar and hand made processes built up after generations of development ... On reflection and having been in Kabul I recall being completely puzzled at the expectation of seeing masses of hand made items of artisans down the ages and being confronted with the skeletal remains of what was left... On closer inspection what was left was virtually nothing...some hand made carpets from distant regions ...the odd carving...antiques that were 99% junk...and on researching why it became clear that to a huge degree it was all gone..and the state factories had done their job long ago...and of course decades of strife in a war torn country. The Mashin Khana destroyed much of the hand made objects entirely.

I would agree there is probably no trace of any records...The Mashin Khana itself has gone...but in its day I can well see how daggers and anything else that could be sucked into the whirlpool of state Factory stamping or production was in fact done... even those employed in hand made wares were absorbed into the Grand State Enterprize so even if they could it was too late and those capable of passing on the expertise were prevented from doing so ...and soon it would be lost.

This happened to weapons first since the initial objective was weapons of war...then all things that could be made by machines fell under the hammer so to speak...Minting of coinage was among the first to be absorbed and daggers and swords were very much targets of mechanised tools ...That however, did not mean some sort of link between the daggers you mention and the newer swords which looked like modern bayonet style of the day...The factory was however well capable of rejigging with modern machine made hilts and issuing stamps on anything which could be stamped!! That's what happened and no development or design sprang from one dagger to the next.... Only the common stamp; The dreaded Mashin Khana !

See https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...843799&cad=rjt

and http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afgh.../mashin-khana/

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Cannons and even Martini Henry rifles, ammo and bayonets were all copied ..There was a huge factory at Jangalak...and that is what is stamped on the MH below which employed over 8,000 men next to Ayub Khan Mena and it is said that this was the M.H. production centre...anyway it was part of the National Factories Industrial Revolution under the flag Mashin Khana.
See http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/...and%201903.htm for more evidence of bayonet production in Afghanistan...about 1888.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

In an attempt to iron out what was and what was not reproduced at Mashin Khana or subsidiary factories in Kabul I extract and Quote the following from http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...4#.V-UAdnqrGxF
Quote"

1880: Abdur Rahman officially recognized as Amir
1885: - “When Lord Dufferin assumed the Viceroyalty one of his first acts was to invite the Amir to India in order to cement the relations between Afghanistan and Great Britain. Abdur Rahman agreed, and afterwards met the Viceroy at Rawul Pindi.”

The Amir engaged M. Jerome, a French Electrical Engineer to establish the manufacture of arms and ammunition at Kabul.

While visiting Lord Dufferin, “A portable engine with, a dynamo and flashlight attached caught the Ameer's eye and gave him the idea of introducing machinery into Afghanstan. A Frenchman in charge of this machinery accepted the Ameer's invitation to go to Kabul”…..

“Shortly after his arrival at Kabul he looked out of his window one morning and saw two men hanging on the gallows and two women having their throats cut.

The spectacle proved too much for the chivalrous Frenchman. On being sent to Europe to buy machinery he determined not to risk his skin, again. The machinery was forthcoming, but not the Frenchman.''

“Some months passed by and the Ameer wrote to the Indian Government asking them to send an engineer. To this they replied that they could not officially comply with this request, but if the Ameer specified an individual, permission would be given for him to cross the frontier. In the result I [Salter Pyne] was allowed to go to Afghanistan, and on March 12th, 1885, I left Peshawar for Cabul.” Pyne was 25 years old at the time.

“Pyne was approached and contracted in 1887 through Abd al-Rahman's Envoy in Calcutta”

Mr. Salter Pyne, English Mechanical Engineer entered service of Amir with permission of the Government of India in 1887.

[COMMENT: Note the disparity in dates in the preceding three passages – based on Pyne’s birth year of 1860, his age of 25 upon departure, and his own testimony of departure in the year 1885, 1887 probably reflects when the appointment was officially documented in Indian records.]

“Born in 1860 at Broseley, he commenced life as a lad in the Birmingham machinery works of Tangye and Co. He soon worked up to the position of manager of foundry and engineering works, and at the age of 22 went out to Calcutta for an engineering firm. He was still in Calcutta when the Ameer paid a visit to Lord Dufferin at Rawal Pindi.”

ca.1886 - 1889: “Sir Walter Pyne, a Yorkshireman, first arrived in Kabul in 1886 and started a workshop…” ." “At the end of three months 'the buildings were finished, and Mr Pyne was dispatched to Europe to procure machinery.” Eighteen months were spent in getting machinery and plant specially made in England, and a similar period elapsed after his return before the machinery arrived at Cabul.” These eventually grew to workshops, sawmills, steam hammers, lathes, and machines for making a variety of articles, from breech-loading cannon to soap and candles. Particular attention was given to the fashioning of arms and the supply of munitions of war.”

1891: Rifles, cannons, ammunition, and boots were being produced at the mashin khana.

1893: In 1893 fifty muzzle and breech-loading field guns were cast and drilled, and a large number of Martini-Henry Rifles were turned out. Cartridges were being filled at the rate of three thousand daily.”

“Mr. Pyne was at one time engaged in an arms factory in England. At Kabul they turn out a rifle of the Martini-Henry Pattern. The barrel is made by machinery, but the stock mechanism and sighting is done by hand. About 3,000 Martini-Henri cartridges are manufactured daily. There is also plant for manufacturing Snider cartridges, but it has not yet been set up.”

1894: “By 1894 Sir Salter was turning out 7000 Martini and 900 Snider cartridges a day. He next turned his attention and that of his Afghans to the manufacture of Martini- Henry gun barrels and set up a steam hammer and a forge. Muzzle and breechloading field guns then made their appearance.

“In 1898 They turned out two Gardiners and two Maxims every month, and 120 Nordenfeldts a year, also 120 quick-firing field pieces, ranging from six to 14 pounders, every year. The daily output of rifles was 25 and every 24 hours 10,000 Snider and 10,000 Martin cartridges were produced.”

1898: “In 1898, after 13 years faithful service to the Ameer, Sir Salter left Afghanistan.”

LOCATION OF THE WORKSHOP

“Workshop situate on the banks of the Kabul River where it emerges from the gorge between the Asmai and Sher Derwaza mountains into the Kabul valley. There is a small steam-hammer, a stationary engine, lathes, cartridge plant, and a minting-machine operating under the direction of Mr. Pyne and his European assistants.”

“In 1898 the foundries and workshops —second to none in the world. In their elaborate equipment and up-to-date fittings— covered an area of a third of a mile long by 200 yards wide. Three thousand three hundred Afghans were employed, a large percentage of the whole population of Kabul.”

NOTE: ON THE TERM “mashin khana”

It has been speculated that there may be a Russian connection to this term used to reference the work shop complex. Given the Amir’s eleven year exile in Russian Turkestan prior to his return to Afghanistan this could be very probable.

SOURCES AND CREDITS: All references cited are readily available on the internet and use of quote marks above indicate direct quotes from the original source and full attribute to the original author.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdur_Rahman_Khan (Accessed 7 Jan 12)
[2] THE DEVELOPMENT OF AFGHANISTAN Timaru Herald, Volume LVII, Issue 5917, 16 March 1894, Page 3
[3] Wheeler, Stephen. The Ameer Abdur Rahman; Bliss, Sands and Foster (London 1895); page 218-219
[4] FROM ARTISAN TO AMBASSADOR. AFGHANISTAN'S CIVILISER. EN ROUTE FOR AUSTRALASIA. Auckland Star, Volume XXXII, Issue 34, 9 February 1901, Page 3
[5] The Ameer. His Armaments. Government Cruelties. Auckland Star, Volume XXVII, Issue 68, 21 March 1896, Page 4
[6] Hanifi, Shah Mahmoud. CONNECTING HISTORIES IN AFGHANISTAN, Market Relations and State Formation on a Colonial Frontier; Columbia University Press, (Online 2008). Note 63
[7] The Annual register of world events: a review of the year, Volume 133 (1891). Longmans, Green, and Co. (London, 1892). Edited by Edmund Burke. Page 365 and 366
Same passage found in:
Design Council. Engineering, Volume 51 (July 17, 1891) Page 161
[8] Wheeler, Stephen. The Ameer Abdur Rahman; Bliss, Sands and Foster (London 1895); page 221
[9] The Ameer’s Soap Factory in Afghanistan published in the American soap journal and manufacturing chemist, Volumes 3-5; Henry Gathmann Publisher (Chicago, April 1, 1893 Vol. IV, No 1). Page 198
[10] Journal of the Society of Arts, Volume 42. Society of Arts (Great Britain, from November 17, 1893 to November 16, 1894. Page 264

[[edited to correct variants to 7 distinct types]] "Unquote.