Ram's head khanjar for comment

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

It is not uncommon for broken blades from other weapons to be incorporated into daggers... I think the damage near the hilt is because of this re match.... Nice hilt and a good example of the Zoomorphic nature of these daggers.

Ibrahiim, two of your examples are modern made.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ibrahiim, two of your examples are modern made.

Without better close-up photos is hard to tell.

However, my bet is that they are both old pieces (at least the hilts) but recently decorated. The golden one appears to have a new pattern welded blade, while the silver one appears to have an original wootz blade.

It is very easy to take a dagger like the one in the original posting, replace old/damaged parts (blade, hilt or only fixtures) if necessary, clean it nicely, apply Koftgari lavishly, furbish it with a new matching scabbard and sell it for 3-5 times the price it would have raised in its original state.

This is a very, very widely spread practice in India these days as Koftgari artists are abundant and their work comes cheap.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Without better close-up photos is hard to tell.

However, my bet is that they are both old pieces (at least the hilts) but recently decorated. The golden one appears to have a new pattern welded blade, while the silver one appears to have an original wootz blade.

Both are completely modern. No mention of wootz on the first and I think they were being very liberal with this "first quarter of the 20th Century" The second one does not even give a date, look at the sales price / estimates, the auction house knew what these were.

Lot 170: A kardThe Great Sale of Fine & Scarce Antique Arms & Armour, Day 1by Czerny's International Auction HouseMay 25, 2013 Sarzana (SP), Italy

Realized Price: €400 Verified
Estimated Price: €400 - €600
Description: Curved, toothed, double-edged blade, ribbed at the centre, at the forte a mount decorated with silver-inlaid floral motifs; fine, iron grip with pommel shaped as a ram head, entirely silver-inlaid with effigy of peacock among racemes; wooden scabbard with green velvet covering.
provenance: India
dimensions: length 32.5 cm.
dating: first quarter of the 20th Century

A FINE INDO PERSIAN DAMASCUS GOLD NIELLO DAGGER. The slightly curved Damascus steel blade with
Jackson's Auctioneers

Lot closed:
Apr 06, 2013 9am CDT
Estimate:
150 USD - 200 USD

A FINE INDO PERSIAN DAMASCUS GOLD NIELLO DAGGER. The slightly curved Damascus steel blade with saw tooth back, the handle and rams head pommel with ornate gold niello foliage. The velvet covered scabbard with similarly decorated gold niello mounts. Overall length 16 inches (40.7 cm).

[estcrh]

There is a good reason to be a bit suspicious when in doubt.

[estcrh]

Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????

Curved Dagger (Khanjar) with Ram-Head Pommel, Mughal period, 17th/18th century

Watered steel inlaid with gold and silver in the kuftgari technique
28.6 x 5.7 x 2.9 cm (11 1/4 x 2 1/4 x 1 1/8 in.)

[estcrh]

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

17th Century

India

Wootz Steel.

Lenght: 34.9 cm.

North Indian Khanjar dagger. The hilt is of chiseled steel, with fully-modeled ram’s head pommel. The knucklebow issues from a makara’s mouth and terminates in a horse’s head, while the guard is chiseled with elephant’s heads in relief.

The broad, curved double-edged blade forged of fine silver wootz damascus steel, bears two deep fullers and a pronounced median ridge, developing into a thick armor-piercing tip.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Not wanting to get into a ravel over age on examples of rams heads I have posted I simply loaded on some Rams Heads...Clearly these Hilts have entered the traditions ...and should be viewed as such. The project dagger with probable replacement blade is typical of Indian style.. and is a good example.

[David]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Now this one shows some real wear, what you would expect from a genuinely old dagger.

Estcrh, i was referring to THIS dagger (below) of which you made the remark above in post #21, not the originally posted dagger. Then you then asked in post #24:
"If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it."
My point is that apparently one that you have already accept as old has indeed been posted, establishing that such hilts did exist in antiquity.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is one from the Art Institute of Chicago, I have some doubts about this one as well, 17th to 18th century????

You have doubts and rightfully so. This one is 19th century at best, but then again, I suspect new Koftgari. So if the Art Institute if Chicago can be so obviously wrong, then...

Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new.

As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well.

I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Possibly the golden one to be completely new, blade scabbard and all Koftgary for sure but the hilt not so sure. It can simply be an old hilt cleaned and decorated anew. Since the whole surface of the hilt is covered in Koftgari, it would be almost impossible to say whether is old or new.

That is why a data base of images is very valuable. Now when you say "As far as I know, carved iron hilts of this type were quite popular in the 19th century" the currently available images do not back this up, yes there are Indian rams head daggers but I know of only a few that are carved iron, this is why when one shows up it gets questioned. Take a look at the photo below, both daggers newly made without a doubt in my opinion.

If anyone has another image of an Indian dagger with a carved iron rams head hilt I would like to see it.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

As with regards, to the auction house knowing very well what they were selling... based on my experience with quite reputed auction houses, I have serious doubts about that as well.

I have seen myself magnificent antique pieces selling dirt cheap (even acquired a couple of such pieces) and obvious modern replicas selling for extortionately high prices. And I'm talking about reputed and specialised auction houses not about obscure/unknown back-yard ones.

Same experience!