Jamdhar katari - a theory

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ariel, always loved that quote from Shakespeare!!!

Jens,
You have only tenaciously studied the katar almost obsessively for 15 years that I know of!!!! and you had already been at it for years. Your collecting and researching on them has in my opinion surpassed the Victoria & Albert and others, and has had the attention of the Met in N.Y. and others.
I have seen you research some examples virtually to the very precise location in India where it was made! and the article on the Bundi katars is superb.
Then I remember years ago as you were studying friezes, temple iconography, miniatures, rare Indian articles and obscure books (this was even before Robert Elgood wrote Hindu Arms and Ritual in 2004). We pursued the bizarre gauntlet dagger/sword in Stone which was referred to as a boarding weapon termed a 'manople' and his source in Calvert (1903) which was not apparently related in this case.

When it comes to katars (and tulwars) there is nobody I know, or have known who has the knowledge on these weapons you do.

I am saying this simply because Jens' will not and will probably bend my ear for doing so. I would just like to profoundly note just who he is in the study of Indian arms. Though I have studied arms most of my life, most of what I have learned on Indian weapons has been from him and subjects we studied together.

Hi Jim,

I cannot help but be surprised and saddened by your reply which I take was occasioned by my opinion re the Katar shown in the sketch and carving, I was just stating my honest opinion as simple as that. I have the utmost respect for the knowledge and research undertaken and still being undertaken by Jens and other forum members in their particular fields
and would never knowingly state anything to offend them but that surely does not prevent me from expressing an honest opinion.?
Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

Miguel, please rest asured that I have taken no offence at all, and I think that every member should give their version of how he/she sees it, or there would be no debate.
Now, for the Coorg question. There will, within some time, be an article published about part of the question. No, I dont yet know where or when.
I will however suggest that you concentrate on South Indian temples, and decorations of hero stones. Consentrade on South India and Deccan.
The curved knives 'moved' north to Nepal and a few other places, but was completely forgotten in the south - why??
I think this is the question, amongst others, you have to ask youtself. When you are at it - when was that??

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Miguel, please rest asured that I have taken no offence at all, and I think that every member should give their version of how he/she sees it, or there would be no debate.
Now, for the Coorg question. There will, within some time, be an article published about part of the question. No, I dont yet know where or when.
I will however suggest that you concentrate on South Indian temples, and decorations of hero stones. Consentrade on South India and Deccan.
The curved knives 'moved' north to Nepal and a few other places, but was completely forgotten in the south - why??
I think this is the question, amongst others, you have to ask youtself. When you are at it - when was that??

Hi Jens, thank you it makes me feel a lot better and thanks for your tip re the Coorgs. To be honest I have not pursued my investigations for a few months due to being frustrated at seemingly every turn. I thought that I may have established a link with the Caucasians but could not properly substantiate it. I also purchased a number of books on ancient Indian peoples but have not found anything yet. Now you have given me a clue as to where I may look I will try again but in short doses this time to try and hopefully avoid to much frustration.
Regards
Miguel

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Miguel,
It is most heartening as I read on your clearly impassioned approaches toward properly understanding the extremely complex field of the arms and armour of India and Central Asia. Again, I do deeply apologize for not better directing my comments to Jens, which I had not realized would become such a faux pas.
As I explained, I have had the opportunity to work alongside him in many cases in the study of these very weapons over many years.

What I should have emphasized is how delighted myself, and I am sure Jens and others who have most seriously studied these weapons, are to have others join in this quest. Having new eyes and new ideas as well as more perspective in recalling what have become well travelled roads of years ago is outstanding.

The image Jens posted in his last post for example, brought to mind the term 'maustika'. While I recall the frieze, and the term, I could not immediately recall more on the word nor the image, but of course remember where it was from.

Searching the term 'maustika' on Google, it was amazing to see a discussion on this very subject between Jens, myself and B.I. who is a brilliant scholar on these weapons who used to write here. It was from these pages Apr 28, 2006, and we had all been years into the search already.

Apparantly I had found reference to this 'maustika' listed as a 'fist sword/dagger' in Richard Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1885, p214-215). Burton had in turn referenced this from Professor Gustav Oppert ("Weapons of the Ancient Hindus", 1880). Again, in turn, Oppert cited his reference from the 'Nitiprakashika' Book III.

This entry was resultant of a the study Jens had been doing on the origins of the katar, in particular of a small triangular blade with a transverse bar for a grip, as if the entire weapon was cast in one piece. This was from a line drawing and the actual weapon if I recall was from the Moser Collection (Bern, and the image from Holstein, 1931).
Returning to the frieze Jens just posted, I believe (again if memory serves) this represented the Goddess Mahisasuramardini, Durga, slaying the buffalo demon (Orissa temple frieze?, 13th c.).
This clear example of a transversely held dagger seems compellingly to be a katar, and the weapon from Holstein, an even earlier and simpler 'proto katar' (?).
In that particular discussion from 2006, the shield with blade or spike was also mentioned as I noted earlier here.

I wanted to share these notes from those earlier studies and discussions only to present them as perhaps benchmarks or ideas to further pursue various avenues toward the more conclusive resolutions we all clearly hope to achieve.

Best regards
Jim

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Miguel,
It is most heartening as I read on your clearly impassioned approaches toward properly understanding the extremely complex field of the arms and armour of India and Central Asia. Again, I do deeply apologize for not better directing my comments to Jens, which I had not realized would become such a faux pas.
As I explained, I have had the opportunity to work alongside him in many cases in the study of these very weapons over many years.

What I should have emphasized is how delighted myself, and I am sure Jens and others who have most seriously studied these weapons, are to have others join in this quest. Having new eyes and new ideas as well as more perspective in recalling what have become well travelled roads of years ago is outstanding.

The image Jens posted in his last post for example, brought to mind the term 'maustika'. While I recall the frieze, and the term, I could not immediately recall more on the word nor the image, but of course remember where it was from.

Searching the term 'maustika' on Google, it was amazing to see a discussion on this very subject between Jens, myself and B.I. who is a brilliant scholar on these weapons who used to write here. It was from these pages Apr 28, 2006, and we had all been years into the search already.

Apparantly I had found reference to this 'maustika' listed as a 'fist sword/dagger' in Richard Burton ("Book of the Sword" 1885, p214-215). Burton had in turn referenced this from Professor Gustav Oppert ("Weapons of the Ancient Hindus", 1880). Again, in turn, Oppert cited his reference from the 'Nitiprakashika' Book III.

This entry was resultant of a the study Jens had been doing on the origins of the katar, in particular of a small triangular blade with a transverse bar for a grip, as if the entire weapon was cast in one piece. This was from a line drawing and the actual weapon if I recall was from the Moser Collection (Bern, and the image from Holstein, 1931).
Returning to the frieze Jens just posted, I believe (again if memory serves) this represented the Goddess Mahisasuramardini, Durga, slaying the buffalo demon (Orissa temple frieze?, 13th c.).
This clear example of a transversely held dagger seems compellingly to be a katar, and the weapon from Holstein, an even earlier and simpler 'proto katar' (?).
In that particular discussion from 2006, the shield with blade or spike was also mentioned as I noted earlier here.

I wanted to share these notes from those earlier studies and discussions only to present them as perhaps benchmarks or ideas to further pursue various avenues toward the more conclusive resolutions we all clearly hope to achieve.

Best regards
Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for your most interesting reply, I have a lot to learn.
Regards
Miguel

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, thanks for your most interesting reply, I have a lot to learn.
Regards
Miguel

We all do Miguel!!! Ive been at this most of my life (a more considerable span than I care to remember ) and am still trying to learn. Its a lot more fun when you are doing it with others, which is why we're here.

[mahratt]

In the context of the discussion I recommend those who are really interested to understand the issue, examine the article: On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

http://historical-weapons.com/the-us...n-weapons-abs/

It is on the website in full version.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim,

I cannot help but be surprised and saddened by your reply which I take was occasioned by my opinion re the Katar shown in the sketch and carving, I was just stating my honest opinion as simple as that. I have the utmost respect for the knowledge and research undertaken and still being undertaken by Jens and other forum members in their particular fields
and would never knowingly state anything to offend them but that surely does not prevent me from expressing an honest opinion.?
Regards
Miguel

Miguel,
There is absolutely no problem with your stating honest opinions!! in fact most of us here welcome inquisitive approaches to these seemingly never ending quests. Which was mostly what I was trying to say as a most respectful nod to my good friend Jens, in recognition of the many years of research he has put to the katar. My apologies if it sounded as if directed at you.....actually Jens has always been most receptive to any ideas or information which might be factored into his considerable corpus of research.
Your posts are well placed, thought out and above all courteous.
All best regards
Jim

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Miguel,
There is absolutely no problem with your stating honest opinions!! in fact most of us here welcome inquisitive approaches to these seemingly never ending quests. Which was mostly what I was trying to say as a most respectful nod to my good friend Jens, in recognition of the many years of research he has put to the katar. My apologies if it sounded as if directed at you.....actually Jens has always been most receptive to any ideas or information which might be factored into his considerable corpus of research.
Your posts are well placed, thought out and above all courteous.
All best regards
Jim

Hi Jim, thanks for your reply and apologies for getting hold of the wrong end of the stick, I should have known better
Regards
Miguel

[Jens Nordlunde]

You are welcome.

Maybe this book would be of interest to you.
Mitra, Rajendralala: The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. Government of India 1875, reprint IndianStudies 1961.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Well, it all started when I saw the drawing in Holsteins book, and realised it was from Mitra's book. I bought the book, and then I was on the track.
Jim it had nothing to do with the Moser Collection, so you may have mixed the notes, it had only to do with the Holstein catalogue and the Mitra book.
According to Mitra there seems to be more statues in Orissa with daggers like this one.
Attached is one of the plates showing weapons used in Orissa at the time, 7th to 13th century.
I find no 186 very interesting, but dont want to discuss it now. No 205 is the katar.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Jens, it has been a long time, and I don't have my notes and Indian details with me this trip. Clearly I misremembered about the Moser collection, but do recall this intriguing, simple but compelling item (#205) in the Holstein reference.
I don't recall anything about the Mitra reference, which of course I can blame on memory slippage as an age problem.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Miguel

Hi Jim, thanks for your reply and apologies for getting hold of the wrong end of the stick, I should have known better
Regards
Miguel

Miguel, we crossed posts !!! Thank you! It is good to get back to this mystery, and with reinforcements