Afghan Pulowar blade type?

[Jim McDougall]

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

Thank you for the post Jim; The industrial make of the Afghan weapon certainly ruled out any traditional fashion statement although it can be seen as a reflection in the goosehead style of finial as a tiny vestige of what went before..I completely support the bud...probably as you say a lotus bud ~ and it may be related to the name Tulvar or Pulvar as Pul and Tul mean flower... though it is an outside shot. I actually considered the dish pommel as a floral form and had considered that as indicative of the name...

One system I have held back in joining the flux is the Sri Lankan form where dragons abound but they are probably related...and seen below as examples.

[ariel]

OK, just as an afterthought: re. " Afghani regulation khybers".
By definition, " regulation weapon" is a highly standardized one, manufactured in bulk, according to a design approved by a central authority and ( very often) at the same factory.
In short, a large mass of identical twins.
Here are two allegedly " regulation khybers"

One has two grooves, another has one. One blade has a stamp on the ricasso and is numbered another does not. One has a shield-like languet, another does not.The D-guards are of a different contours.

The conclusion is inescapable: there is nothing " regulation" here. Just a similar idea expressed in different " languages" with different parts including imported blades, with or without governmental stamps at a defined position.

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

[DaveS]

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by DaveS

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

Hello Dave,

You are right... providing that you don't use a hand-held drilling machine fit with a milling cutter, or providing that you use a milling machine with good, not worn, vertical positioning control.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

I see nothing in common, perhaps they were a progression from the khyber knife but that does not make them related at all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The whole thing with these bayonet like hilted short swords is that they are primarily the product of a military arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul, and the only connection to the tribal 'salawar' sword is that a good number of these tribal swords were mounted with these military style hilts. The fact that the well known state seal with Mosque at Mazir I Sharif is seen on these in many cases, suggests that these may have been furbished in this manner for some of the tribal levys which served in auxiliary capacity with British Army in these regions.

This does not mean these were TRANSITIONAL, simply variations for such use.

It may be remembered that the great clue to the stamp on these weapons was due to someone spotting the stamp on Afghanistans coins being identical...and that the mistake in thinking they were done in an actual fictional other location.

Thus other than carrying a strike mark done at Kabul there is no link with these two weapons.

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
Please note that on of the two swords shown by me has an arsenal stamp and another does not ( it's other side is also blank, I was just saving space). Also look at post #64: there is such a bewildering variety of these swords that any idea of them being "regulation" or even made at the same place becomes improbable. Also note the absense of a langet on one of them. And, BTW, do we really know that ANY of them were made at Mashin Khana? Any documentary evidence of an approved design, manufacturing order or other written confirmation?



In any research endeavor assembly and verification of facts go first. Only if the facts are strong enough can one summarize them into a plausible idea. In this case it was done in reverse with fully predictable results. Reminds me of an old story about a renown sniper: each and every bullet hole was right in the center of a target. Only he shot first, and drew the " bullseye" around the hole later:-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
Please note that on of the two swords shown by me has an arsenal stamp and another does not ( it's other side is also blank, I was just saving space). Also look at post #64: there is such a bewildering variety of these swords that any idea of them being "regulation" or even made at the same place becomes improbable. Also note the absense of a langet on one of them. And, BTW, do we really know that ANY of them were made at Mashin Khana? Any documentary evidence of an approved design, manufacturing order or other written confirmation?



In any research endeavor assembly and verification of facts go first. Only if the facts are strong enough can one summarize them into a plausible idea. In this case it was done in reverse with fully predictable results. Reminds me of an old story about a renown sniper: each and every bullet hole was right in the center of a target. Only he shot first, and drew the " bullseye" around the hole later:-)

From http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afgh.../mashin-khana/ I Quote"
Mashin Khana

The state arsenal and factory in Kabul had a narrow gauge “portable railway” supplied by Leeds company John Fowler & Co.1 Fowler produced 60 cm gauge portable light railway equipment, initially under an agreement with French engineer Paul Decauville.

The Kabul factory known as the Mashin Khana (machine house) was established by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, with Englishman Thomas Salter Pyne as his engineering advisor. Pyne had previously been an overseas representative of Fowler, and later received British and Afghan honours for diplomatic work.

Books could probably be written both about the factory, which was the amir’s attempt to buy-in an industrial revolution, and about Salter Pyne himself. As it is, little has turned up about the railway so far."Unquote.

You describe well in your second paragraph the situation in and around the farcical accounting (corruption) in the Mashin Khana which having been imposed on the Kabul and Afghanistan population as a sort of social experiment actually destroyed almost entirely the Bazaar and hand made processes built up after generations of development ... On reflection and having been in Kabul I recall being completely puzzled at the expectation of seeing masses of hand made items of artisans down the ages and being confronted with the skeletal remains of what was left... On closer inspection what was left was virtually nothing...some hand made carpets from distant regions ...the odd carving...antiques that were 99% junk...and on researching why it became clear that to a huge degree it was all gone..and the state factories had done their job long ago...and of course decades of strife in a war torn country. The Mashin Khana destroyed much of the hand made objects entirely.

I would agree there is probably no trace of any records...The Mashin Khana itself has gone...but in its day I can well see how daggers and anything else that could be sucked into the whirlpool of state Factory stamping or production was in fact done... even those employed in hand made wares were absorbed into the Grand State Enterprize so even if they could it was too late and those capable of passing on the expertise were prevented from doing so ...and soon it would be lost.

This happened to weapons first since the initial objective was weapons of war...then all things that could be made by machines fell under the hammer so to speak...Minting of coinage was among the first to be absorbed and daggers and swords were very much targets of mechanised tools ...That however, did not mean some sort of link between the daggers you mention and the newer swords which looked like modern bayonet style of the day...The factory was however well capable of rejigging with modern machine made hilts and issuing stamps on anything which could be stamped!! That's what happened and no development or design sprang from one dagger to the next.... Only the common stamp; The dreaded Mashin Khana !

See https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=...843799&cad=rjt

and http://www.andrewgrantham.co.uk/afgh.../mashin-khana/