Afghan Pulowar blade type?

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2016, 06:29 PM

OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!!

and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent !

So back to the pointed things......

Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion.

With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th July 2016, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!!

and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent !

So back to the pointed things......

Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion.

With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance.

Salaams Jim, This is a great subject and in viewing the various swan neck types I noted a great variety on both dagger and sword hilts in both Indian and Afghan weapons not surprising from the geographical viewpoint and their close history. Some weapons have elaborate finials but some also seen below have none. Naturally a great number enter the realms of high class bling because of the Jehangir and his association with his own personal designs and those of his many Royal Mughul workshops...in what is almost a fashion statement in Jade and Neophrite etc. Note also the variation where the swan neck can evolve from teardrop or bud through swan neck to serpent like finial. Well noted is the swan neck as seen at #64. above.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th July 2016, 10:18 PM

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th July 2016, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you.

It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India).

In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting.

The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard.

The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important.
This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268.

This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized.

With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

Thank you for the post Jim; The industrial make of the Afghan weapon certainly ruled out any traditional fashion statement although it can be seen as a reflection in the goosehead style of finial as a tiny vestige of what went before..I completely support the bud...probably as you say a lotus bud ~ and it may be related to the name Tulvar or Pulvar as Pul and Tul mean flower... though it is an outside shot. I actually considered the dish pommel as a floral form and had considered that as indicative of the name...

One system I have held back in joining the flux is the Sri Lankan form where dragons abound but they are probably related...and seen below as examples.

ariel · 2nd September 2016, 07:20 PM

OK, just as an afterthought: re. " Afghani regulation khybers".
By definition, " regulation weapon" is a highly standardized one, manufactured in bulk, according to a design approved by a central authority and ( very often) at the same factory.
In short, a large mass of identical twins.
Here are two allegedly " regulation khybers"

One has two grooves, another has one. One blade has a stamp on the ricasso and is numbered another does not. One has a shield-like languet, another does not.The D-guards are of a different contours.

The conclusion is inescapable: there is nothing " regulation" here. Just a similar idea expressed in different " languages" with different parts including imported blades, with or without governmental stamps at a defined position.

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

DaveS · 3rd September 2016, 07:34 AM

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

mariusgmioc · 4th September 2016, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

Hello Dave,

You are right... providing that you don't use a hand-held drilling machine fit with a milling cutter, or providing that you use a milling machine with good, not worn, vertical positioning control.

estcrh · 4th September 2016, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-)

I see nothing in common, perhaps they were a progression from the khyber knife but that does not make them related at all.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th September 2016, 09:57 AM

The whole thing with these bayonet like hilted short swords is that they are primarily the product of a military arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul, and the only connection to the tribal 'salawar' sword is that a good number of these tribal swords were mounted with these military style hilts. The fact that the well known state seal with Mosque at Mazir I Sharif is seen on these in many cases, suggests that these may have been furbished in this manner for some of the tribal levys which served in auxiliary capacity with British Army in these regions.

This does not mean these were TRANSITIONAL, simply variations for such use.

It may be remembered that the great clue to the stamp on these weapons was due to someone spotting the stamp on Afghanistans coins being identical...and that the mistake in thinking they were done in an actual fictional other location.

Thus other than carrying a strike mark done at Kabul there is no link with these two weapons.

27th July 2016, 06:29 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	OK ya lot of suds sodden characters!!! and right Rick, in Knights of Heaven.....excellent ! So back to the pointed things...... Here is a great tulwar which Gav had,believed of northern regions in India, this determined by a number of paluoar characteristics such as striations in the pommel etc .Note the slotted knuckleguard, not only found on a good number of paluoars but on the Afghan military hilt in discussion. With that recurved gooseneck, swan neck (often I have seen the term 'water bird') feature at the terminal at pommel, it seems Pant attributed tulwars with this feature to Banswara in Rajasthan. However that may of course be equally diffused to many other instances as specific regional classifications are usually speculative at best without exact provenance. Attached Images

2nd September 2016, 07:20 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, just as an afterthought: re. " Afghani regulation khybers". By definition, " regulation weapon" is a highly standardized one, manufactured in bulk, according to a design approved by a central authority and ( very often) at the same factory. In short, a large mass of identical twins. Here are two allegedly " regulation khybers" One has two grooves, another has one. One blade has a stamp on the ricasso and is numbered another does not. One has a shield-like languet, another does not.The D-guards are of a different contours. The conclusion is inescapable: there is nothing " regulation" here. Just a similar idea expressed in different " languages" with different parts including imported blades, with or without governmental stamps at a defined position. And if anyone can please explain to me how these blades could have anything in common with the classic Afghani khyber except for being short, I shall be very grateful:-) Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 2nd September 2016 at 07:46 PM.

27th July 2016, 10:18 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	More astounding photos Ibrahiim !! Thank you. It truly is fascinating looking more at the recurved guard 'necks' and their variation in style especially as occurring on tulwars in India as opposed to the paluoar (while of Afghanistan but in actuality N. India). In most cases it seems the decorative treatment on tulwars is more inclined to floral theme, and these recurved features resemble a bud (probably lotus). There are of course exceptions, but it seems worth noting. The Afghan paluoar seems to nearly invariably use a dragon or 'monster' in stylized degree on both the downturned quillon terminals and the recurved neck of the guard. The use of the dragon symbolically is of course not confined to the Ottoman sphere, however it does seem to be significantly important. This is well described in "The Silver Dragon and the Golden Fish: An Imperial Ottoman Symbol", David Alexander , Gladius XXIII, 2003, pp.211-268. This suggests the preponderance of the 'dragon' used by Ottomans, and seemingly favored by Afghans in the decoration of these swords accordingly as a symbol of power. In many, if not most cases, these are of course dramatically stylized. With the military 'Machin Khana' style hilts, it is intriguing to see the general form of these hilts with recurved neck on guard fashioned into simple machine type guards, slotted as in some more decorative tulwar and paluouar hilts. Along with this we see the extremely austere bayonet style hilt, following the 'strictly business' character of western military arms.

3rd September 2016, 07:34 AM	#6
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Regarding the argument as to weather the fullers were milled or chiseled in, i have ran a milling machine for many years, and these fullers were, in my opinion definitely NOT milled in. A milling cutter used in a dremel type tool might wander and the fuller might not be perfectly straight, but the overall width would be fairly consistent, which these fullers are not. In my opinion these fullers have been chiseled in. This is an old sword.......Dave.

5th September 2016, 09:57 AM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The whole thing with these bayonet like hilted short swords is that they are primarily the product of a military arsenal at Machin Khana in Kabul, and the only connection to the tribal 'salawar' sword is that a good number of these tribal swords were mounted with these military style hilts. The fact that the well known state seal with Mosque at Mazir I Sharif is seen on these in many cases, suggests that these may have been furbished in this manner for some of the tribal levys which served in auxiliary capacity with British Army in these regions. This does not mean these were TRANSITIONAL, simply variations for such use. It may be remembered that the great clue to the stamp on these weapons was due to someone spotting the stamp on Afghanistans coins being identical...and that the mistake in thinking they were done in an actual fictional other location. Thus other than carrying a strike mark done at Kabul there is no link with these two weapons.