Afghan Pulowar blade type?

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2016, 10:43 PM

Thank you for the additional images Ariel.

I would like to note that I personally feel responsible in the case of the titling and premise of this article. Actually I participated in editing and constructing the text of the original article which was written by Mahratt, at his request as he was concerned with semantics and language issues.
As I had researched these swords many years before, I should have been able to suggest revisions in the overall premise and text, but being impressed with the volume and character of his research and work inadvertently did not.

In all, as noted previously, the Khyber short swords were not regulation in the true sense, simply notable present in consistency in military context.
The traditional Khyber was interpolated in the mix, with the expected array of variations in all of these in a colonial setting.

The article in and of itself, still carries an impressive insight into the Anglicization of Afghan edged weapons of these times, and the use of the royal arsenal stamp and Mashin Khana factory.

Here, I would suggest we leave the Khyber sword and knife aspects and return to the paluoar as in the original post.
This deviation in the discussion does serve as interesting perspective with associations to the paluoar as these weapons were all contemporary and truly offers certain dimension to the times and place where these were used.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 11:24 PM

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

ariel · 24th July 2016, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 02:21 AM

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2016, 03:34 AM

Ariel,
I was not aware of that, and thank you for acknowledging your part in this situation. I would agree that we indeed should be cautious in our involvement assistance with these kinds of matters, but I would not consider Mahratt inexperienced academically or otherwise. He compiled some impressive data and research to include in the article. It was more a matter of language and syntax in the construction of the article, and it seems these kinds of misalignments are often the crux of misunderstandings.
Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.

I think it is good that we can clarify some of these aspects of these interesting edged weapons which are in the spectrum of Afghan arms.
I agree, let us continue.......and further, I have no idea of the correct spelling of paluoar(?)

but ?

Ibrahiim, indeed astutely observed on the gooseneck style of the guard, which is tempting in qualifying certain Afghan weapons. This feature, is well known on paluoars, these 'military hilts' and other weapons of northern India. This recurved guard is well known on various Indian tulwar forms, but here I must note it is equally present on many into the Deccan and southern regions. These influences are much too reciprocally diffused throughout Central Asia to depend on them for regional classification, however they can be considered as compelling evidence where certain consistancies are found.

It is evident that this Central Asian feature with Ottoman influences well established is something that might be considered to be prevalent through Mughal channels.

estcrh · 25th July 2016, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma.

Jim, I never would have guessed if you did not say it yourself!!

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2016, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, I never would have guessed if you did not say it yourself!!

Thank you so much Eric, that is a most kind thing to say !

ariel · 25th July 2016, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ariel,

Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.

There are as many ways to skin a cat just as to become a true academic researcher:-)

Education in a particular discipline is important and necessary only in certain cases requiring certification . But Georg Mendel discovered laws of heredity without ever getting any formal biological education. And how many weapon historians and researchers had formal degree in that discipline? Stone was just a metallurgist dealing with non-ferrous alloys:-) Buttin? As a matter of fact, virtually all important contributions into that field were done by the individuals without any specific formal education in weaponry as such.

What you had, Jim, was your ability and willingness to learn, listen to opinions of experienced people, readiness to discard your own biases, honesty in admitting your errors, respect for books and people and honing your skills in asking the right questions and formulating supportable answers.

That's all what was needed to become "Google" Mc Dougall :-)

I would venture to say that any reasonably intelligent person can become a true "academic" researcher in our field that blissfully does not have formal education and curriculum requirements. We are all autodidacts.

On the other hand, absence of any condition stated above would be a fatal flaw, permanently disqualifying a person from becoming a true researcher.

kronckew · 25th July 2016, 01:41 PM

ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever.

the prescription for ignorance is learning; education by teachers with open minds and the ability to accept ideas from others, testing them, and by your own research, self-education and experience. learning is also making mistakes and eventually not making the same ones. you are not ignorant if you have learned as much as you can and keep trying to exceed your limitations, no matter what your IQ. formal education can actually be a hindrance.

the prescription for stupidity is euthanasia; chlorinating the gene pool for the sake of the rest of us and the future. sadly too many of us, mostly politicians, seem incapable of even accepting that much change. they seem to revel in and enjoy their status quo. the occasional one gets a bit of enlightenment and resigns before the stuff hits the fan.

p.s. - there is a cure for all this off topic maudlin pedantry: it's called 'Beer', sadly not available to all. occasionally a good quinta port works well too, as fernando may be able to confirm.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

I agree... I ought to add a caveat that the Afghan swords at #64 and the Pulouir style had knuckle guards of a similar type at the top near the Pommel finished in a sort of Goose Neck finial. The project swords have similar finials... It seems the Tulvar and Pulouir are very similar so it may not be surprising that they have similar finials also...This birdhead is certainly sophisticated and mirrors what we learn of Jehangir who personally designed many of these himself.

I should add this ... Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0hilts&f=false where it is clear that Ottoman hilts copied Mughal form on swords and daggers.

ariel · 24th July 2016, 11:43 PM

Jim,
I also feel in part responsible: at Mahratt's request I translated this essay into English. I also did not provide my comments about its fatal logical error. Sorry.
There is a lesson for both of us: if we are asked to assist in any way to a young and academically-inexperienced Forumite, we should not be shy to offer constructive critique. The same applies to all our comments: it is not productive just to applaud politely but insincerely: the whole purpose of intellectual exchange is in perfecting a worthy message and rejecting wrong conclusions.
Learning is possible only if a learner is willing to listen to critique and accept it. It would be nice to learn from somebody else's mistakes , but realistically it is our own ones that give us real knowledge and understanding. Some people do not take well to criticism ( no matter how polite and constructive it might be), and those, IMHO, are hopeless.

But back to the Pulouars ( dang, what is the right way to spell this word?:-))))

Here is my other one: brass-inlaid handle, groove-less blade with no Indian ricasso, but with wootz and unusual scabbard stitching: teeny-tiny nails.

24th July 2016, 11:24 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !! Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th July 2016 at 11:50 PM.

25th July 2016, 02:21 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th July 2016 at 10:35 PM.

25th July 2016, 01:41 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,238	ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever. the prescription for ignorance is learning; education by teachers with open minds and the ability to accept ideas from others, testing them, and by your own research, self-education and experience. learning is also making mistakes and eventually not making the same ones. you are not ignorant if you have learned as much as you can and keep trying to exceed your limitations, no matter what your IQ. formal education can actually be a hindrance. the prescription for stupidity is euthanasia; chlorinating the gene pool for the sake of the rest of us and the future. sadly too many of us, mostly politicians, seem incapable of even accepting that much change. they seem to revel in and enjoy their status quo. the occasional one gets a bit of enlightenment and resigns before the stuff hits the fan. p.s. - there is a cure for all this off topic maudlin pedantry: it's called 'Beer', sadly not available to all. occasionally a good quinta port works well too, as fernando may be able to confirm. Last edited by kronckew; 25th July 2016 at 02:00 PM.

24th July 2016, 11:43 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I also feel in part responsible: at Mahratt's request I translated this essay into English. I also did not provide my comments about its fatal logical error. Sorry. There is a lesson for both of us: if we are asked to assist in any way to a young and academically-inexperienced Forumite, we should not be shy to offer constructive critique. The same applies to all our comments: it is not productive just to applaud politely but insincerely: the whole purpose of intellectual exchange is in perfecting a worthy message and rejecting wrong conclusions. Learning is possible only if a learner is willing to listen to critique and accept it. It would be nice to learn from somebody else's mistakes , but realistically it is our own ones that give us real knowledge and understanding. Some people do not take well to criticism ( no matter how polite and constructive it might be), and those, IMHO, are hopeless. But back to the Pulouars ( dang, what is the right way to spell this word?:-)))) Here is my other one: brass-inlaid handle, groove-less blade with no Indian ricasso, but with wootz and unusual scabbard stitching: teeny-tiny nails. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 24th July 2016 at 11:54 PM.

24th July 2016, 10:43 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Thank you for the additional images Ariel. I would like to note that I personally feel responsible in the case of the titling and premise of this article. Actually I participated in editing and constructing the text of the original article which was written by Mahratt, at his request as he was concerned with semantics and language issues. As I had researched these swords many years before, I should have been able to suggest revisions in the overall premise and text, but being impressed with the volume and character of his research and work inadvertently did not. In all, as noted previously, the Khyber short swords were not regulation in the true sense, simply notable present in consistency in military context. The traditional Khyber was interpolated in the mix, with the expected array of variations in all of these in a colonial setting. The article in and of itself, still carries an impressive insight into the Anglicization of Afghan edged weapons of these times, and the use of the royal arsenal stamp and Mashin Khana factory. Here, I would suggest we leave the Khyber sword and knife aspects and return to the paluoar as in the original post. This deviation in the discussion does serve as interesting perspective with associations to the paluoar as these weapons were all contemporary and truly offers certain dimension to the times and place where these were used.

25th July 2016, 03:34 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Ariel, I was not aware of that, and thank you for acknowledging your part in this situation. I would agree that we indeed should be cautious in our involvement assistance with these kinds of matters, but I would not consider Mahratt inexperienced academically or otherwise. He compiled some impressive data and research to include in the article. It was more a matter of language and syntax in the construction of the article, and it seems these kinds of misalignments are often the crux of misunderstandings. Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years. I think it is good that we can clarify some of these aspects of these interesting edged weapons which are in the spectrum of Afghan arms. I agree, let us continue.......and further, I have no idea of the correct spelling of paluoar(?) but ? Ibrahiim, indeed astutely observed on the gooseneck style of the guard, which is tempting in qualifying certain Afghan weapons. This feature, is well known on paluoars, these 'military hilts' and other weapons of northern India. This recurved guard is well known on various Indian tulwar forms, but here I must note it is equally present on many into the Deccan and southern regions. These influences are much too reciprocally diffused throughout Central Asia to depend on them for regional classification, however they can be considered as compelling evidence where certain consistancies are found. It is evident that this Central Asian feature with Ottoman influences well established is something that might be considered to be prevalent through Mughal channels.