Afghan Pulowar blade type?

ariel · 24th July 2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The title of the article uses the term 'regulation Khyber knife' and development. Actually the article, excellent in its content, describes more the concurrent use of these distinct parallel slotted guard 'military' hilts on both the 'regulation' short sword AND its tribal cousin the KHYBER knife.
.

Exactly my point. The article was carefully researched and the description of the actual objects was exemplary. However, it was based on a wrong premise, tried to forcibly prove an incorrect hypothesis and inevitably reached a wrong conclusion.
There was no evolution. It was not even parallel development ( if by that we mean independent creation of virtually identical constructions). We are talking about 2 different short sidearms present in Afghanistan at the same time period.

ariel · 24th July 2016, 10:05 PM

The variety of Afghani short sabers was very wide: the blades, the handles, the manner of carrying.
They were no more "regulation" than khybers of different varieties, and the name of those was legion:-)

Jim McDougall · 24th July 2016, 10:43 PM

Thank you for the additional images Ariel.

I would like to note that I personally feel responsible in the case of the titling and premise of this article. Actually I participated in editing and constructing the text of the original article which was written by Mahratt, at his request as he was concerned with semantics and language issues.
As I had researched these swords many years before, I should have been able to suggest revisions in the overall premise and text, but being impressed with the volume and character of his research and work inadvertently did not.

In all, as noted previously, the Khyber short swords were not regulation in the true sense, simply notable present in consistency in military context.
The traditional Khyber was interpolated in the mix, with the expected array of variations in all of these in a colonial setting.

The article in and of itself, still carries an impressive insight into the Anglicization of Afghan edged weapons of these times, and the use of the royal arsenal stamp and Mashin Khana factory.

Here, I would suggest we leave the Khyber sword and knife aspects and return to the paluoar as in the original post.
This deviation in the discussion does serve as interesting perspective with associations to the paluoar as these weapons were all contemporary and truly offers certain dimension to the times and place where these were used.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th July 2016, 11:24 PM

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

ariel · 24th July 2016, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 02:21 AM

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2016, 03:34 AM

Ariel,
I was not aware of that, and thank you for acknowledging your part in this situation. I would agree that we indeed should be cautious in our involvement assistance with these kinds of matters, but I would not consider Mahratt inexperienced academically or otherwise. He compiled some impressive data and research to include in the article. It was more a matter of language and syntax in the construction of the article, and it seems these kinds of misalignments are often the crux of misunderstandings.
Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years.

I think it is good that we can clarify some of these aspects of these interesting edged weapons which are in the spectrum of Afghan arms.
I agree, let us continue.......and further, I have no idea of the correct spelling of paluoar(?)

but ?

Ibrahiim, indeed astutely observed on the gooseneck style of the guard, which is tempting in qualifying certain Afghan weapons. This feature, is well known on paluoars, these 'military hilts' and other weapons of northern India. This recurved guard is well known on various Indian tulwar forms, but here I must note it is equally present on many into the Deccan and southern regions. These influences are much too reciprocally diffused throughout Central Asia to depend on them for regional classification, however they can be considered as compelling evidence where certain consistancies are found.

It is evident that this Central Asian feature with Ottoman influences well established is something that might be considered to be prevalent through Mughal channels.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th July 2016, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
Interesting observation. If this is correct, it might help in pinpointing " pseudoshashkas" to North India/Afghanistan and date them around the same time, ie second half of 19th century.
The only problem that there are plenty of purely Indian tulwars with a very similar feature.

I agree... I ought to add a caveat that the Afghan swords at #64 and the Pulouir style had knuckle guards of a similar type at the top near the Pommel finished in a sort of Goose Neck finial. The project swords have similar finials... It seems the Tulvar and Pulouir are very similar so it may not be surprising that they have similar finials also...This birdhead is certainly sophisticated and mirrors what we learn of Jehangir who personally designed many of these himself.

I should add this ... Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0hilts&f=false where it is clear that Ottoman hilts copied Mughal form on swords and daggers.

ariel · 24th July 2016, 11:43 PM

Jim,
I also feel in part responsible: at Mahratt's request I translated this essay into English. I also did not provide my comments about its fatal logical error. Sorry.
There is a lesson for both of us: if we are asked to assist in any way to a young and academically-inexperienced Forumite, we should not be shy to offer constructive critique. The same applies to all our comments: it is not productive just to applaud politely but insincerely: the whole purpose of intellectual exchange is in perfecting a worthy message and rejecting wrong conclusions.
Learning is possible only if a learner is willing to listen to critique and accept it. It would be nice to learn from somebody else's mistakes , but realistically it is our own ones that give us real knowledge and understanding. Some people do not take well to criticism ( no matter how polite and constructive it might be), and those, IMHO, are hopeless.

But back to the Pulouars ( dang, what is the right way to spell this word?:-))))

Here is my other one: brass-inlaid handle, groove-less blade with no Indian ricasso, but with wootz and unusual scabbard stitching: teeny-tiny nails.

24th July 2016, 10:05 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The variety of Afghani short sabers was very wide: the blades, the handles, the manner of carrying. They were no more "regulation" than khybers of different varieties, and the name of those was legion:-) Attached Images

24th July 2016, 11:24 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all....I have to say that the gooseneck finial at the top of the knuckleguard is the same style as the finial on the so called Pseudoshashka !! Ibrahiim al Balooshi Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 24th July 2016 at 11:50 PM.

24th July 2016, 11:43 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, I also feel in part responsible: at Mahratt's request I translated this essay into English. I also did not provide my comments about its fatal logical error. Sorry. There is a lesson for both of us: if we are asked to assist in any way to a young and academically-inexperienced Forumite, we should not be shy to offer constructive critique. The same applies to all our comments: it is not productive just to applaud politely but insincerely: the whole purpose of intellectual exchange is in perfecting a worthy message and rejecting wrong conclusions. Learning is possible only if a learner is willing to listen to critique and accept it. It would be nice to learn from somebody else's mistakes , but realistically it is our own ones that give us real knowledge and understanding. Some people do not take well to criticism ( no matter how polite and constructive it might be), and those, IMHO, are hopeless. But back to the Pulouars ( dang, what is the right way to spell this word?:-)))) Here is my other one: brass-inlaid handle, groove-less blade with no Indian ricasso, but with wootz and unusual scabbard stitching: teeny-tiny nails. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 24th July 2016 at 11:54 PM.

24th July 2016, 10:43 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Thank you for the additional images Ariel. I would like to note that I personally feel responsible in the case of the titling and premise of this article. Actually I participated in editing and constructing the text of the original article which was written by Mahratt, at his request as he was concerned with semantics and language issues. As I had researched these swords many years before, I should have been able to suggest revisions in the overall premise and text, but being impressed with the volume and character of his research and work inadvertently did not. In all, as noted previously, the Khyber short swords were not regulation in the true sense, simply notable present in consistency in military context. The traditional Khyber was interpolated in the mix, with the expected array of variations in all of these in a colonial setting. The article in and of itself, still carries an impressive insight into the Anglicization of Afghan edged weapons of these times, and the use of the royal arsenal stamp and Mashin Khana factory. Here, I would suggest we leave the Khyber sword and knife aspects and return to the paluoar as in the original post. This deviation in the discussion does serve as interesting perspective with associations to the paluoar as these weapons were all contemporary and truly offers certain dimension to the times and place where these were used.

25th July 2016, 02:21 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 25th July 2016 at 10:35 PM.

25th July 2016, 03:34 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,454	Ariel, I was not aware of that, and thank you for acknowledging your part in this situation. I would agree that we indeed should be cautious in our involvement assistance with these kinds of matters, but I would not consider Mahratt inexperienced academically or otherwise. He compiled some impressive data and research to include in the article. It was more a matter of language and syntax in the construction of the article, and it seems these kinds of misalignments are often the crux of misunderstandings. Ironically, if it were simply a case of academic experience I would be immediately disqualified, as I have entirely zero academic experience past my high school diploma. That said, the volume of knowledge and general experience I have achieved has been through the patience and generosity of so many others in these fields who stood as mentors and friends in working with me through many years. I think it is good that we can clarify some of these aspects of these interesting edged weapons which are in the spectrum of Afghan arms. I agree, let us continue.......and further, I have no idea of the correct spelling of paluoar(?) but ? Ibrahiim, indeed astutely observed on the gooseneck style of the guard, which is tempting in qualifying certain Afghan weapons. This feature, is well known on paluoars, these 'military hilts' and other weapons of northern India. This recurved guard is well known on various Indian tulwar forms, but here I must note it is equally present on many into the Deccan and southern regions. These influences are much too reciprocally diffused throughout Central Asia to depend on them for regional classification, however they can be considered as compelling evidence where certain consistancies are found. It is evident that this Central Asian feature with Ottoman influences well established is something that might be considered to be prevalent through Mughal channels.