WOOTZ or SHAM?

shangrila · 8th February 2006, 07:13 AM

one guy showed off this for the Spring Festival's traditional blessing, but people don't actually know what this is but an antique with koftgari and some veins.

this thing may you look at right here:

http://www.hl365.net/viewthread.php?...extra=page%3D1

would you kindly tell something, thanks!

Jeff Pringle · 8th February 2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Verhoeven makes it clear that Fe3C (cementite) is crucial to forming the watering pattern. He also makes it clear that they can only form in the hypereutectoid state.

While it is true that excess cementite only shows up in hypereutectoid steels, I think Verhoeven might be mistaken in saying the cementite is crucial to the pattern.
This blade is 0.79%, measured at a lab -

This blade is somewhat less in carbon, but has not been lab analysed -

The patterns are not due to extra cementite; since they are below the eutectoid point the carbon is all wrapped up in pearlite.
Do the patterns look like sham wootz, or regular, or somewhere in between?

I think the ultimate answer is to get more blades checked at the lab, but we may find the old pattern-based distinctions are as much related to working methods as alloy.

Gt Obach · 8th February 2006, 11:36 PM

love those blades... very nice
i like the top one alot... ... were they etched in sulphuric

the bottom one..... the pattern near the spine looks abit sham like... with the straight long lines..

what do others think?

i think we are really are closing in on the true wootz steel... by looking at the traditions, the alloys, patterns and treatments.... i believe its really the big picture that counts.....
-- when i look at Jeff's blades ...by the nouveau wootz definition... i would say they are wootz..

Shangrila: I believe that is a " Kard " and its made of wootz... ... very nice...
I love the close up on the blade.... look at the purple-ish hue of the etch..
-- this is interesting.... has anyone replicated this etch oxide color ???
-- i'm thinking "alum" may have been used in the etch??

Jeff D · 9th February 2006, 03:55 AM

Those are beautiful Jeff!

I am not sure how to classify either blade, neither looks like "classic" sham. They do appear similar to 19th century patterns from Persia and India. Can I ask is this from modern steel? Do you know the S content? You certainly have me scratching my head!

Jeff

Jeff Pringle · 9th February 2006, 04:48 AM

Thanks, they are modern steel, photo # 1 is about five years old, photo #2 is just a couple months. Sulfur is 0.02%, I think, I am away from my records right now, I'll double check when I get home.
I'm scratching my head, too - another decade or two of experiments, and I *might* have an idea of how modern and classic wootz blades compare, and what it all means.
First blade was etched in Ferric chloride, second in ferrous sulfate.

shangrila · 9th February 2006, 10:00 AM

what a great forum and discussion! Amazing!

How could I come to be a fast learner?

I think I need some basic materials,books and samples.

who can help me out???

I love this place.

Rick · 9th February 2006, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shangrila

what a great forum and discussion! Amazing!

How could I come to be a fast learner?

I think I need some basic materials,books and samples.

who can help me out???

I love this place.

The search function at the upper right hand corner of the page is your key to riches .

8th February 2006, 07:13 AM	#1
shangrila Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31	HI, all friends one guy showed off this for the Spring Festival's traditional blessing, but people don't actually know what this is but an antique with koftgari and some veins. this thing may you look at right here: http://www.hl365.net/viewthread.php?...extra=page%3D1 would you kindly tell something, thanks!

9th February 2006, 10:00 AM	#6
shangrila Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31	Thank you, Gt Obach what a great forum and discussion! Amazing! How could I come to be a fast learner? I think I need some basic materials,books and samples. who can help me out??? I love this place.

8th February 2006, 11:36 PM	#3
Gt Obach Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 116	love those blades... very nice i like the top one alot... ... were they etched in sulphuric the bottom one..... the pattern near the spine looks abit sham like... with the straight long lines.. what do others think? i think we are really are closing in on the true wootz steel... by looking at the traditions, the alloys, patterns and treatments.... i believe its really the big picture that counts..... -- when i look at Jeff's blades ...by the nouveau wootz definition... i would say they are wootz.. Shangrila: I believe that is a " Kard " and its made of wootz... ... very nice... I love the close up on the blade.... look at the purple-ish hue of the etch.. -- this is interesting.... has anyone replicated this etch oxide color ??? -- i'm thinking "alum" may have been used in the etch??

9th February 2006, 03:55 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Those are beautiful Jeff! I am not sure how to classify either blade, neither looks like "classic" sham. They do appear similar to 19th century patterns from Persia and India. Can I ask is this from modern steel? Do you know the S content? You certainly have me scratching my head! Jeff

9th February 2006, 04:48 AM	#5
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Thanks, they are modern steel, photo # 1 is about five years old, photo #2 is just a couple months. Sulfur is 0.02%, I think, I am away from my records right now, I'll double check when I get home. I'm scratching my head, too - another decade or two of experiments, and I might have an idea of how modern and classic wootz blades compare, and what it all means. First blade was etched in Ferric chloride, second in ferrous sulfate.