Afghan Pulowar blade type?

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

estcrh · 21st July 2016, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

See anything that looks remotely new here?

ariel · 21st July 2016, 07:16 PM

It IS old :-)))))))

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It IS old :-)))))))

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

estcrh · 21st July 2016, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

Much older, your letting your original suspicion (not a bad thing) keep you from seeing that there is no aspect of this sword and scabbard which shows anything other than extreme age, 19th century at least...in my opinion. The rust is localised to specific areas, not unusual at all. The rivets are worn, no sign of being removed, the resin is obviously old, the brass / gold inserts all along the spine are worn, not intact and new.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:58 PM

Thank you for the photos!

Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure!

Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool.

Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily?

ariel · 21st July 2016, 08:33 PM

Marius,

Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that.
I am at work now, but will check my collection.

Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest.

Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old.

My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 08:07 PM

Unlike other regions India was slow into the business of faking age on weapons. Like all weapons it is far better to have the thing in your hands in assessing real or not. I have to say, however, that looking at the wear, rust and patina in these pictures that this looks like mid 19th century or earlier... It is naturally worn... I see no sharp edges and the overall smooth, even wear seems to me quite original. I can imagine that when it was newer the pearl or steel ball inserts would travel up and down the slots but that fair wear and tear has rendered the grooves unusable ... The Chinese were making this style in the 17thn C and it is suggested that it was something they copied from India and Persia. Certainly there are plenty of examples from those regions. Great discussion ...Thanks.

Please see http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

I place a Mughal dagger from a finished auction below...Quote" A Mughal kard with the 'Tears of the Wounded'
18th century
The 11 1/2 inch single edged wootz blade of substantial weight and showing a fine ladder pattern; offset slots inlet on either side inserted with fresh water pearls, the Tears of the Wounded. Fluted spine chiseled with a scroll work panel at the base. Integral bolster inlaid in gold, the peony meander pattern reserved in steel. One-piece water buffalo horn grip with flat silver-plated pommel cap set with a grooved red coral cabochon in the Ottoman style.
Condition: Blade showing a strong watered pattern with series of scratches. Grip probably replaced during period of use". Unquote.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 08:16 PM

As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition...

Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

estcrh · 21st July 2016, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

It IS old :-)))))))

Yes, old, nothing new about it at all.

mariusgmioc · 21st July 2016, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

See anything that looks remotely new here?

I guess you are right. The scabbard looks old, but I assume leather can be easily aged. Just bake it a little.

The steel of the hilt also appears to be artificially aged with spots of very recent and active red rust.

I also stand by my conclusion that the blade is a dud. And I explained why.

Try chiseling a straight groove and a curved one and will see what I mean. You basically have to struggle a lot with the chisel if you purportedly want curved grooves like those on the blade. Straight grooves come out naturally.

Moreover, in order to mill the grooves the way they are, the steel of the blade has to be very soft to the point of being iron and that's why I think this blade couldn't stand a single blow without bending.

I would like to hear the opinion of a skilled bladesmith in this matter.

21st July 2016, 07:58 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Thank you for the photos! Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure! Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool. Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily? Last edited by mariusgmioc; 21st July 2016 at 08:11 PM.

21st July 2016, 08:07 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Unlike other regions India was slow into the business of faking age on weapons. Like all weapons it is far better to have the thing in your hands in assessing real or not. I have to say, however, that looking at the wear, rust and patina in these pictures that this looks like mid 19th century or earlier... It is naturally worn... I see no sharp edges and the overall smooth, even wear seems to me quite original. I can imagine that when it was newer the pearl or steel ball inserts would travel up and down the slots but that fair wear and tear has rendered the grooves unusable ... The Chinese were making this style in the 17thn C and it is suggested that it was something they copied from India and Persia. Certainly there are plenty of examples from those regions. Great discussion ...Thanks. Please see http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html I place a Mughal dagger from a finished auction below...Quote" A Mughal kard with the 'Tears of the Wounded' 18th century The 11 1/2 inch single edged wootz blade of substantial weight and showing a fine ladder pattern; offset slots inlet on either side inserted with fresh water pearls, the Tears of the Wounded. Fluted spine chiseled with a scroll work panel at the base. Integral bolster inlaid in gold, the peony meander pattern reserved in steel. One-piece water buffalo horn grip with flat silver-plated pommel cap set with a grooved red coral cabochon in the Ottoman style. Condition: Blade showing a strong watered pattern with series of scratches. Grip probably replaced during period of use". Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 21st July 2016 at 08:26 PM.

21st July 2016, 07:16 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It IS old :-)))))))

21st July 2016, 08:33 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Marius, Many old Afghan blades have grooves exactly like that. I am at work now, but will check my collection. Grooves like that were cut with very hard chisels all over the world. The round mark at the beginning of the groove is just a convenient starting point. I agree that the steadiness of hand was not exemplary, but we are not talking Assadullah here, this is a creation of a simple Afghani blacksmith making simple Afghani swords for simple Afghani slashing. Not exquisite, but perfectly sufficient for butchering a feringhi:-)) Thus, there is no doubt in my mind that Eric is absolutely correct: it is a genuinely old blade, 19 century at the latest. Of course, leather might be newer: scabbards did not survive very long in the field, Russian army regulations specified exchange of scabbards every 3 years. Professional fakers from India and Georgia routinely present artificially-aged leather scabbards: they do not look 1% as convincing as this one. While it is possible to fake the mastique, I certainly would like to know how to do it: it looks awfully old. My bottom line: 100% genuine, 100% old.

21st July 2016, 08:16 PM	#9
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	As Ibrahiim points out, all edges of the grooves appear rounded like after long wear... yet you have the inlays in pretty good condition... Well... not really... so don't mind this last comment. Just a thought that crossed my mind.