Afghan Pulowar blade type?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

[mariusgmioc]

I believe that the grooves were milled with a rotating mill mounted in a hand held power tool or the rotating mill was mounted in a fixed drilling/milling machine, and the blade was moved along the machine table.

That's why the inconsistecy in the depth of the grooves and that's why they are not straight. Last, not least, that's why you have the round entry points of the milling tool at the beginning of the grooves.

It is very easy to chisel straight grooves, and it is very easy to control their depth if you chisel them by hand. The natural movement of the chisel is in straight lines, and you can repeat the chiselling operation until you reach the desired depth.

Try doing the same with a small ball-point end-mill mounted in a hand held power tool and you will know what I mean!

I may not know much about antique weapons but I certainly know something about mechanical machining.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

See anything that looks remotely new here?

[ariel]

It IS old :-)))))))

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by ariel

It IS old :-)))))))

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!

Much older, your letting your original suspicion (not a bad thing) keep you from seeing that there is no aspect of this sword and scabbard which shows anything other than extreme age, 19th century at least...in my opinion. The rust is localised to specific areas, not unusual at all. The rivets are worn, no sign of being removed, the resin is obviously old, the brass / gold inserts all along the spine are worn, not intact and new.

[mariusgmioc]

Thank you for the photos!

Certainly milled with a ball-tipped end-mill! And this type of tool didn't exist in 19th century for sure! 20 century again for sure!

Those grooves couldn't have been made with a chisel. They start with an ample curvature an with a lesser depth because that's when the linear movement of the mill starts and there is most resistance after the initial starting hole, so there is less control over the tool.

Do yo have this blade? Is it elastic like steel should be, or bends easily?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Unlike other regions India was slow into the business of faking age on weapons. Like all weapons it is far better to have the thing in your hands in assessing real or not. I have to say, however, that looking at the wear, rust and patina in these pictures that this looks like mid 19th century or earlier... It is naturally worn... I see no sharp edges and the overall smooth, even wear seems to me quite original. I can imagine that when it was newer the pearl or steel ball inserts would travel up and down the slots but that fair wear and tear has rendered the grooves unusable ... The Chinese were making this style in the 17thn C and it is suggested that it was something they copied from India and Persia. Certainly there are plenty of examples from those regions. Great discussion ...Thanks.

Please see http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo2.html

I place a Mughal dagger from a finished auction below...Quote" A Mughal kard with the 'Tears of the Wounded'
18th century
The 11 1/2 inch single edged wootz blade of substantial weight and showing a fine ladder pattern; offset slots inlet on either side inserted with fresh water pearls, the Tears of the Wounded. Fluted spine chiseled with a scroll work panel at the base. Integral bolster inlaid in gold, the peony meander pattern reserved in steel. One-piece water buffalo horn grip with flat silver-plated pommel cap set with a grooved red coral cabochon in the Ottoman style.
Condition: Blade showing a strong watered pattern with series of scratches. Grip probably replaced during period of use". Unquote.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

It IS old :-)))))))

Yes, old, nothing new about it at all.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by estcrh

See anything that looks remotely new here?

I guess you are right. The scabbard looks old, but I assume leather can be easily aged. Just bake it a little.

The steel of the hilt also appears to be artificially aged with spots of very recent and active red rust.

I also stand by my conclusion that the blade is a dud. And I explained why.

Try chiseling a straight groove and a curved one and will see what I mean. You basically have to struggle a lot with the chisel if you purportedly want curved grooves like those on the blade. Straight grooves come out naturally.

Moreover, in order to mill the grooves the way they are, the steel of the blade has to be very soft to the point of being iron and that's why I think this blade couldn't stand a single blow without bending.

I would like to hear the opinion of a skilled bladesmith in this matter.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Sometimes the slots were in the hilt...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Sometimes the slots were in the hilt...

Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!



Do you have a photo of the whole thing?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!



Do you have a photo of the whole thing?

YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/india...ls-in-the-hilt

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/india...ls-in-the-hilt

Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!

I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...

Of course they were not intended for fighting weapons. Think only how difficult would have been their maintenance once the blade gets soaked in blood.