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Old 21st July 2016, 04:16 PM   #1
mariusgmioc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I confess to not knowing what style of wootz is the blade...maybe as you point out.

The pearl slots are empty...but the access holes into which the pearls are placed are visible... I assume the pearls fell out of this one...
Hello Ibrahiim,

I think you are taking the round technological holes at the endings of the fullers as access holes. If you examine the photos more carefully, you may notice there is absolutely no space in the fullers to hold anything, and the round holes at the end of the fullers where made there simply to facilitate the chiseling of the fullers and give them a round, well defined and precise ending. When chiselling the fullers, it is very easy to precisely control the starting point as it is the point where you place the chisel and start applying the force. However, it is rather difficult to control the ending point since the application of force on the chisel cannot be stopped with sufficient precision. Therefore, the necessity to have some holes drilled where the fullers should end, in order to use them as "chisel stoppers." That's why the fullers have those holes at only one end. Of course the problem of giving the fuller a precise stop can also be handled by starting the chiselling from both ends.

Another explanation may be that the fullers were not chiseled at all but they were milled along the blade with a rotating power tool. In that case, the holes would mark the entry point of the milling cutter. If this is the case, then the whole blade is nothing but a modern reproduction...

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

Besides, the grooves for the "tears of the wounded" were normally chisseld through the whole thickness of the blade, so they were piercing the blade from side to side.

Regards,

Marius

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Old 21st July 2016, 04:45 PM   #2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Ibrahiim,

I think you are taking the round technological holes at the endings of the fullers as access holes. If you examine the photos more carefully, you may notice there is absolutely no space in the fullers to hold anything, and the round holes at the end of the fullers where made there simply to facilitate the chiseling of the fullers and give them a round, well defined and precise ending. When chiselling the fullers, it is very easy to precisely control the starting point as it is the point where you place the chisel and start applying the force. However, it is rather difficult to control the ending point since the application of force on the chisel cannot be stopped with sufficient precision. Therefore, the necessity to have some holes drilled where the fullers should end, in order to use them as "chisel stoppers." That's why the fullers have those holes at only one end. Of course the problem of giving the fuller a precise stop can also be handled by starting the chiselling from both ends.

Another explanation may be that the fullers were not chiseled at all but they were milled along the blade with a rotating power tool. In that case, the holes would mark the entry point of the milling cutter. If this is the case, then the whole blade is nothing but a modern reproduction...

... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!

Besides, the grooves for the "tears of the wounded" were normally chisseld through the whole thickness of the blade, so they were piercing the blade from side to side.

Regards,

Marius

I don't quite follow your theory on the fake nature of the blade...The slots are hand grouted thus not 100% aligned. I will place tears of the wounded ...blades ...below ... Thank you for the post...very interesting. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6912
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:45 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
... and now... after giving you this explanation, I became quite sure the fullers were milled with a power tool, and not chiseled in the traditional way. The fact they are not straight and their depth varies considerably, seems to point in that direction.

My conclusion: the blade is a modern fake!
No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:02 PM   #4
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I believe that the grooves were milled with a rotating mill mounted in a hand held power tool or the rotating mill was mounted in a fixed drilling/milling machine, and the blade was moved along the machine table.

That's why the inconsistecy in the depth of the grooves and that's why they are not straight. Last, not least, that's why you have the round entry points of the milling tool at the beginning of the grooves.

It is very easy to chisel straight grooves, and it is very easy to control their depth if you chisel them by hand. The natural movement of the chisel is in straight lines, and you can repeat the chiselling operation until you reach the desired depth.

Try doing the same with a small ball-point end-mill mounted in a hand held power tool and you will know what I mean!

I may not know much about antique weapons but I certainly know something about mechanical machining.
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
No chance of that, old resin, old scabbard that fits perfectly etc.
What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.


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Old 21st July 2016, 06:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
What makes you think the scabbard is "old" as there are no detailed photos of it?!

And where did you see the "old resin?"

I cannot find a single photo showing the joint between the blade and the hilt.

The only photos that show some resin are those of my sword.

See anything that looks remotely new here?
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:16 PM   #7
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It IS old :-)))))))
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:27 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
It IS old :-)))))))
How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
How old? 20... maybe 40 years old yes, but not more!
Much older, your letting your original suspicion (not a bad thing) keep you from seeing that there is no aspect of this sword and scabbard which shows anything other than extreme age, 19th century at least...in my opinion. The rust is localised to specific areas, not unusual at all. The rivets are worn, no sign of being removed, the resin is obviously old, the brass / gold inserts all along the spine are worn, not intact and new.
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:41 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ariel
It IS old :-)))))))
Yes, old, nothing new about it at all.
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Old 21st July 2016, 07:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
See anything that looks remotely new here?
I guess you are right. The scabbard looks old, but I assume leather can be easily aged. Just bake it a little.

The steel of the hilt also appears to be artificially aged with spots of very recent and active red rust.

I also stand by my conclusion that the blade is a dud. And I explained why.

Try chiseling a straight groove and a curved one and will see what I mean. You basically have to struggle a lot with the chisel if you purportedly want curved grooves like those on the blade. Straight grooves come out naturally.

Moreover, in order to mill the grooves the way they are, the steel of the blade has to be very soft to the point of being iron and that's why I think this blade couldn't stand a single blow without bending.

I would like to hear the opinion of a skilled bladesmith in this matter.
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:06 PM   #12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Sometimes the slots were in the hilt...
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Sometimes the slots were in the hilt...
Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!



Do you have a photo of the whole thing?
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Never seen that before. Didn't know that existed. Thanks!



Do you have a photo of the whole thing?
YES A SERIES OF PICTURES IS AT http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/india...ls-in-the-hilt
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Old 21st July 2016, 06:00 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!
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Old 21st July 2016, 06:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Very interesting! Many thanks!

In this case I suppose the only possible explanation for the presence of the "tears" is the sound they make when the dagger is moved.

And that's, in my oppinion, the main reason they are present in some blades as well.

Just remember that in the old times, warriors used to wave their weapons above their heads not only in battles, but also when they were celebrating something or when they were dancing. Then, a rolling balls sound would certainly have made a difference!
I suspect that the main reason for this development was based on superstition / tradition and that it was rather more a parade decorative device than anything else...
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