British Naval Officer's Blue & Gilt Dirk

Richard G · 20th July 2016, 01:14 PM

Will, looking at this again, I'm still not sure. I can't see any naval connection other than the style of the dirk itself. I wonder if it is a masonic dirk, plain and simple'
Helleri, the pommel is supposed to be a lions head. This sort of 'upper half only head' is normal for this type of dirk.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2016, 08:07 PM

Guys, thank you for bringing this thread back!
Actually the notion that this is a naval officers dirk was probably simply because of the well established use of them in that context.
The animal head is indeed intended to be a lion head, in this configuration it corresponds to British infantry officers sabre hilts (M1803) and other military and naval hilts of the Georgian period.

Looking further into this, it would seem that this is most likely a dirk made specifically for a Freemason, and probably of the Order of Knights Templar.
While checking references on Freemasonry, in this case which are on the American aspects, in many if not most cases, the allegory and symbolism used in Freemasonry transcends nationality and other denominators.

From "Material Culture of the American Freemasons" (John D. Hamilton, 1994, p159): 'Knights Templar Dirk"
"...both real and false dirks were worn attached to a regalia baldric or sash as an insignia of the Templar Order. Real dirks were prescribed for regalia worn by Knights Templar only in certain commanderies".

With the numerous symbols on this blade, it would seem perhaps that either it was intended for an individual with achievements in a number of degrees or associations in various rites or steps. In most cases, there is a wide spectrum of perceptions held toward these symbols. For non Freemasons such as myself, it is often dangerous to try to offer meanings and definitive assessments of these. The very secretive nature of Masonry has lead to prolific writings and material which can mostly be regarded as speculative.

The grips on the hilt in ivory for example, have the familiar Palladian arch, which while an architectural feature of the Renaissance, and from a famed architect and Mason, also appeared in Georgian and Federal designs in other than Masonic cases.
The rest of the symbols on the blade are all profoundly Masonic, the cockerel represents the 'Cock of Resurrection' often placed with the 'Paschal Lamb' (as discussed earlier). While this was suggested to indicate French origin, I would note that in other cases the Paschal lamb was joined with French inspired regalia c.1797, on Scottish Rite aprons (op. cit. p112 , 4.22).

There were unbound connections between British, French and for that matter, American Masonic lodges in these times.

It is interesting to see the 'dirk' itself among the pastiche of symbols on the blade of this piece. It seems that symbol often occurs as well in certain degrees of the Scottish Rite. Other symbols such as skull and crossbones have more broad meaning in Masonic symbolism, as do the 'All Seeing Eye' which recalls the origins back to Solomon and Hiram Abiff etc.

In all, a most intriguing item of distinctively British Masonic regalia and as noted, Georgian period in early years of 19th c.

Cathey · 22nd July 2016, 05:35 AM

Hi Guys

As I mentioned previously the royal Naval lodge was founded in 1739. Having discussed this dirk at length with a Naval collector he reassured me that it is Naval but would have belonged to an officer who was also a member of the Naval lodge in the Georgian period.

The Guard has the typical English lion hilt common to many Naval dirks and an English rose on the cross guard.

Regards

Cathey and Rex

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

As I mentioned previously the royal Naval lodge was founded in 1739. Having discussed this dirk at length with a Naval collector he reassured me that it is Naval but would have belonged to an officer who was also a member of the Naval lodge in the Georgian period.

The Guard has the typical English lion hilt common to many Naval dirks and an English rose on the cross guard.

Regards

Cathey and Rex

That makes perfect sense, as it is indeed British. It is interesting to see the groupings of Masonic allegorical symbols, and curious why the typical addition of the fouled anchor would not occur among them. It seems in most cases of naval edged weapons this invariably is present either in hilt or on blade.
My resources as noted were specifically to Masonic symbolism in American context, but I am curious about regalia of the Naval Lodge mentioned in England. I was not aware of a specific lodge for naval officers.

The best thing about weapons is how much we learn from them !

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

As I mentioned previously the royal Naval lodge was founded in 1739. Having discussed this dirk at length with a Naval collector he reassured me that it is Naval but would have belonged to an officer who was also a member of the Naval lodge in the Georgian period.

The Guard has the typical English lion hilt common to many Naval dirks and an English rose on the cross guard.

Regards

Cathey and Rex

It seems I am striking out in finding much on British naval lodges. I very much agree with the Georgian period of this dirk, and the style, scabbard etc. corresponds to Naval edged weapons of the time. The rather 'half' lion seems like some presentation swords of the period. Usually the lion heads were more full.
A 'Freemasons Chronicle (Vol. 11, 1879) lists two 'Sea' lodges in the 18th century. One in 1760 (#254 HMS Vanguard)which went to #108 London Lodge.
Another in 1762 which went to Somerset House? (#254, HMS Prince at Plymouth).
According to this reference, these were still 'on the rolls' of Grand Lodge of England in 1879.

"A Concise Cyclopedia of Freemasonry" Edward Lovell Hawkins (1922) lists these as well, but mentions three lodges, unclear on the other.
It seems noted that of the military, the navy was not very active in formation of lodges c. 1755. The mention of three lodges known to be warranted by Grand Lodge Of England remain mysteriously unclear.
Another note mentions that no other sea lodges were ever constituted though one request to Grand Lodge of Scotland in 1810 was made but not completed.

There are suggestions that Lord Nelson was a Mason, but no exacting proof has been established despite some notable references to certain lodges having commemorations for him .
While I found mention of an 'amphibious lodge' (#407) for Royal Navy officers and Marines (Stonehouse, Plymouth, 1787)......I could not find significant notice to naval lodges further.

I did find a British officers dirk having a Masonic emblem on the scabbard throat c. 1880 and to a Priory Lodge 341, New Ross.

It would be great if your source could note more on Freemasonry in naval context as these findings are terribly incomplete and I'd sure like to know for my own notes.

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 09:06 AM

Addendum:

On the History of 'The Navy Lodge' #2612 (consecrated 1896)

Royal Naval Lodge #59 was founded in London 1739, but in following years lost its connection to navy.

Royal Navy Lodge #429 founded 1838 at Ramsgate.

While it seems there might not have been a specific 'naval' lodge maybe officers (obviously just as with most military officers) must have been Masons in the time of this dirk. Maybe that's why no naval motif?
That still does not eliminate its being naval, just hoping to narrow to likely period by known Masonic affiliations at the time.

Richard G · 22nd July 2016, 11:49 AM

Jim,
Not only no naval insignia but also, as far as I can see, no monarch's cypher. Only the style of this dirk connects it to the Navy. As you point out, if the Cross Pattee has any significance maybe it connects it to a Masonic Knights Templar organisation, or even the legal profession via the Inns of Court.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Jim,
Not only no naval insignia but also, as far as I can see, no monarch's cypher. Only the style of this dirk connects it to the Navy. As you point out, if the Cross Pattee has any significance maybe it connects it to a Masonic Knights Templar organisation, or even the legal profession via the Inns of Court.
Regards
Richard

Well pointed out Richard. Military swords and edged weapons for officers indeed had the Royal cypher in the blued field of the blade. Not only is the naval fouled anchor notably absent, but the blade is covered in a mélange of Masonic allegoric symbols. Of these, the cross pattee is of course to the Knights Templar order in the heirachy of Masonic rites.

It seems by its style that this dirk would certainly be Georgian, and inherently aligned with a naval weapon, but as noted earlier, the dirk was also a weapon used in Masonic regalia. As such it would be presumed that the according symbolism would be impressively displayed as with this example.

I wonder if naval officers of this period were perhaps simply absorbed within the membership of the broader scope of Masonic lodges, rather than there being a specific 'naval lodge'. It does by no means dismiss the notable rarity and keen naval gestalt of this example, and that it is indeed of the Georgian period.

As I could find no examples of naval dirk with Masonic motif until the one I noted from 1880, and as the only specific naval lodge recognized was not founded until 1838, the question remains if there was actually a recognized naval lodge in the end of the 18th into early 19th c .
The 1739 lodge apparantly became disassociated with the Grand Lodge as noted, and its members presumably filtered into other lodges .

This dirk is an outstanding example, and its Masonic character presents opportunities to look deeper into its history.

22nd July 2016, 05:35 AM	#3
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	I believe the dirk is Naval Hi Guys As I mentioned previously the royal Naval lodge was founded in 1739. Having discussed this dirk at length with a Naval collector he reassured me that it is Naval but would have belonged to an officer who was also a member of the Naval lodge in the Georgian period. The Guard has the typical English lion hilt common to many Naval dirks and an English rose on the cross guard. Regards Cathey and Rex

20th July 2016, 01:14 PM	#1
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 413	Will, looking at this again, I'm still not sure. I can't see any naval connection other than the style of the dirk itself. I wonder if it is a masonic dirk, plain and simple' Helleri, the pommel is supposed to be a lions head. This sort of 'upper half only head' is normal for this type of dirk. Regards Richard

20th July 2016, 08:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Guys, thank you for bringing this thread back! Actually the notion that this is a naval officers dirk was probably simply because of the well established use of them in that context. The animal head is indeed intended to be a lion head, in this configuration it corresponds to British infantry officers sabre hilts (M1803) and other military and naval hilts of the Georgian period. Looking further into this, it would seem that this is most likely a dirk made specifically for a Freemason, and probably of the Order of Knights Templar. While checking references on Freemasonry, in this case which are on the American aspects, in many if not most cases, the allegory and symbolism used in Freemasonry transcends nationality and other denominators. From "Material Culture of the American Freemasons" (John D. Hamilton, 1994, p159): 'Knights Templar Dirk" "...both real and false dirks were worn attached to a regalia baldric or sash as an insignia of the Templar Order. Real dirks were prescribed for regalia worn by Knights Templar only in certain commanderies". With the numerous symbols on this blade, it would seem perhaps that either it was intended for an individual with achievements in a number of degrees or associations in various rites or steps. In most cases, there is a wide spectrum of perceptions held toward these symbols. For non Freemasons such as myself, it is often dangerous to try to offer meanings and definitive assessments of these. The very secretive nature of Masonry has lead to prolific writings and material which can mostly be regarded as speculative. The grips on the hilt in ivory for example, have the familiar Palladian arch, which while an architectural feature of the Renaissance, and from a famed architect and Mason, also appeared in Georgian and Federal designs in other than Masonic cases. The rest of the symbols on the blade are all profoundly Masonic, the cockerel represents the 'Cock of Resurrection' often placed with the 'Paschal Lamb' (as discussed earlier). While this was suggested to indicate French origin, I would note that in other cases the Paschal lamb was joined with French inspired regalia c.1797, on Scottish Rite aprons (op. cit. p112 , 4.22). There were unbound connections between British, French and for that matter, American Masonic lodges in these times. It is interesting to see the 'dirk' itself among the pastiche of symbols on the blade of this piece. It seems that symbol often occurs as well in certain degrees of the Scottish Rite. Other symbols such as skull and crossbones have more broad meaning in Masonic symbolism, as do the 'All Seeing Eye' which recalls the origins back to Solomon and Hiram Abiff etc. In all, a most intriguing item of distinctively British Masonic regalia and as noted, Georgian period in early years of 19th c. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 20th July 2016 at 08:51 PM.

22nd July 2016, 09:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Addendum: On the History of 'The Navy Lodge' #2612 (consecrated 1896) Royal Naval Lodge #59 was founded in London 1739, but in following years lost its connection to navy. Royal Navy Lodge #429 founded 1838 at Ramsgate. While it seems there might not have been a specific 'naval' lodge maybe officers (obviously just as with most military officers) must have been Masons in the time of this dirk. Maybe that's why no naval motif? That still does not eliminate its being naval, just hoping to narrow to likely period by known Masonic affiliations at the time.

22nd July 2016, 11:49 AM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 413	Jim, Not only no naval insignia but also, as far as I can see, no monarch's cypher. Only the style of this dirk connects it to the Navy. As you point out, if the Cross Pattee has any significance maybe it connects it to a Masonic Knights Templar organisation, or even the legal profession via the Inns of Court. Regards Richard