Yet another Tulwar

Miguel · 19th July 2016, 08:23 PM

Jim, thank you very much for your very informative reply which because of the clear way you put things has cleared a lot of the confusion I had in my mind from the hours spent trying to discover the identity of this sword, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me, brilliant. I look forward to the books you mention which, hopefully, will clarify more accurately the origins and design of these Tulwar hilt types as from reading the past threads it seemed to crop up fairly regularly, I also hope that they will be out for Christmas so that I can get a present I really want

Thanks, Ibrahiim for your pointer to the Wallace collection, I have seen it and can highly recommend it for both Indian and European weapons.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2016, 01:53 AM

I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th July 2016, 07:05 AM

Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold.
Note the knuckle guard form.

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold.
Note the knuckle guard form.

Many thanks Abrahiim, great pics, they really emphasize the diversity of the many hilt designs. Many thanks
Regards
Miguel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2016, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel

Many thanks Abrahiim, great pics, they really emphasize the diversity of the many hilt designs. Many thanks
Regards
Miguel

I note that these swords were also made by English sword makers...

FOR INTEREST...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ILKINSON+SWORD

Could the project sword at #1 be English?

Miguel · 22nd July 2016, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I note that these swords were also made by English sword makers...

FOR INTEREST...SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ILKINSON+SWORD

Could the project sword at #1 be English?

Hello Ibrahiim,
Interesting thought. I don't think the blade is English due to its design it looks more European to me. From the Wilkinson info the blades they supplied were also shorter than the one on my sword but I am not that knowledgeable. The English swords I have and the ones I have seen are of a different design actually in my opinion not as good.
Regards
Miguel

Jim McDougall · 22nd July 2016, 09:26 PM

Hi Miguel,
First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful.

To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson.
The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c.

In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected.

Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE.

With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records.

Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities.
These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj.

In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.

Miguel · 20th July 2016, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

Jim, I am sure it is much appreciated by other members. I, for one, am certainly appreciative of you sharing your knowledge and for the time you devote to it. Many thanks.
Regards
Miguel

20th July 2016, 07:05 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Tulvar; Invariably Indian / Moghul paintings illustrate (even in their two dimensional form) someone famous wearing or swinging a Tulvar at someone else doing the same! It is therefor Iconic as a weapon and derivatives of the basic form are legion in Indian sword styles. The weapon appears to originate from Turko/ Mongol design and includes replaced blades verging on Mediaeval European and later European blades. Dozens of different hilts appear and some with long spikes in a variety of heavy and light sabre styles...and interestingly the rather cramped hand hold can be supplemented by looping the index finger around the guard...allowing more power and flexibility in the hold. Note the knuckle guard form. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th July 2016 at 08:08 AM.

19th July 2016, 08:23 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Jim, thank you very much for your very informative reply which because of the clear way you put things has cleared a lot of the confusion I had in my mind from the hours spent trying to discover the identity of this sword, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me, brilliant. I look forward to the books you mention which, hopefully, will clarify more accurately the origins and design of these Tulwar hilt types as from reading the past threads it seemed to crop up fairly regularly, I also hope that they will be out for Christmas so that I can get a present I really want Thanks, Ibrahiim for your pointer to the Wallace collection, I have seen it and can highly recommend it for both Indian and European weapons. Regards Miguel

20th July 2016, 01:53 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,590	I am glad I could be of help Miguel. While I am by far no expert on these or any other weapon, I have learned a great deal on tulwars and Indian arms from Jens and others. My goal is always to share as much as I can and to keep learning.......together.

22nd July 2016, 09:26 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,590	Hi Miguel, First of all, thank you for the kind words in your earlier post, I am most grateful. To clarify, in the discussion linked, the Wilkinson Sword Co. among others were suppliers to the British colonies in India, most of the others were either subordinate to or contracted to Wilkinson. The design of the tulwar (Indo-Persian) hilt was of course a development from iconographic Indian hilt forms actually from more ancient times, which evolved at a yet distinctly undetermined period. The progression was quite subtle, and reached its more familiar form probably around the 16th c. In the British Raj, there were an ever increasing number of native units in the British army, and supplying them was a huge undertaking. By the second half of the 19th century, while variations of regulation British military patterns prevailed, many units were allowed to choose their own favored types. Naturally the 'tulwar' was highly selected. Actually Wilkinson and the Mole company, a subcontractor, produced both British patterns as well as the Indian style tulwar hilts. I once had brass tulwar hilted examples marked MOLE. With the military style sabres produced (known as the Paget style) these had blades in either 31" or 33" lengths. I cannot recall details but these were apportioned to different districts, Bengal and Madras. There were numbers of other variations in Wilkinson records. Meanwhile, in earlier East India Company times (pre 1857), there are numbers of Indian hilted (both khanda and tulwar) swords mounted with British military blades. These are hybrids from either captured or discarded British swords and in some cases the whims of flamboyant British officers in some of these native units, with any number of probabilities. These practices and situations prevailed throughout the Raj. In most cases the British blades are marked, while various European imported blades may or may not be marked. Solingen in the later years of the century had numbers of producers who produced volumes of 'blanks' for export to various markets.