Ivory or bone ?

thinreadline · 23rd June 2016, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

ivory indee

What is ivory indee please ?

Berkley · 24th June 2016, 01:26 AM

The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.

thinreadline · 24th June 2016, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berkley

The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.

All very interesting but wouldnt celluloid melt when a hot needle is applied ?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th June 2016, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berkley

The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles.

(Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield).
Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”.

It appears to be French Ivory like your knife scales... thus I agree with you. As already pointed out this is the 1879 factory in Sheffield producing silver and sterling silver and silver plate, Ivory, Mother of Pearl and stag horn handled cutlery etc....see http://www.picturesheffield.com/fron...=2&action=zoom for a picture of the man himself...for research purposes.

I occasionally discover that sword makers were either cutlers before or after their sword making days were over...such as the great sword makers at Shotley Bridge who became cutlers.

Hotspur · 1st July 2016, 04:13 PM

A hot pin in bone smells like burning hair. A hot pin in ivory smells like burning cotton.

Celluloid and other early plastics go back to the third quarter of the 19th century. Ivorine...hmmm.,,,composites of ground scrap ivory and glue go back as far as well.

The Russian mastadon mined ivory of the earlier periods can fool you in some instances and has a somewhat different look than modern elephant. Especially if the mastadon stock was from the outer layers (imo).

Cheers

GC

mariusgmioc · 2nd July 2016, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

A hot pin in bone smells like burning hair. A hot pin in ivory smells like burning cotton.

Celluloid and other early plastics go back to the third quarter of the 19th century. Ivorine...hmmm.,,,composites of ground scrap ivory and glue go back as far as well.

GC

Hello Hotspur,

I tried the hot needle on ivory, bone and some sort of fake ivory and NONE of them was affected in any way. So I can say this is definitely a more anecdotal than a working and reliable test.

Second, when polishing bone and ivory, I noticed they smell very similarly, like the dentist drilling a tooth, so the smell test can also be very misleading.

So I believe the most reliable way to identify ivory is by examining its structure under a magnifying glass.

mariusgmioc · 2nd July 2016, 06:44 PM

In this case, I find the lines to be too strongly visible so I suspect it is not genuine ivory. But it is very hard to say from only a photo. Maybe Thinreadline can provide more close-up photos?!

Also please note that all British silversmiths used to mark their products with a mark indicating the year of manufacture.

Check it out to see what year was yours made.

http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_sheffield.html

thinreadline · 6th July 2016, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

In this case, I find the lines to be too strongly visible so I suspect it is not genuine ivory. But it is very hard to say from only a photo. Maybe Thinreadline can provide more close-up photos?!

Also please note that all British silversmiths used to mark their products with a mark indicating the year of manufacture.

Check it out to see what year was yours made.

http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_sheffield.html

Yes I do say it 1s 1886 hallmarked

Hotspur · 6th July 2016, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Hotspur,

I tried the hot needle on ivory, bone and some sort of fake ivory and NONE of them was affected in any way. So I can say this is definitely a more anecdotal than a working and reliable test.

Second, when polishing bone and ivory, I noticed they smell very similarly, like the dentist drilling a tooth, so the smell test can also be very misleading.

So I believe the most reliable way to identify ivory is by examining its structure under a magnifying glass.

I was thinking about some different materials, you are quite correct. Call it a brain cramp.

I did recently scrape some material and torched the bits and it did smell like a visit to the dentist. That was on a painted ray handle.

Cheers

GC

Silver Shield · 25th August 2016, 04:17 PM

Being a new member to this wonderful forum , I am not sure of all the information that has been written about Ivory. I have also forgotten all the technical terms , for being old and well worn .But in looking at elephant Ivory , I have always on all samples , I have seen ,not only these lines but also a crosshatch pattern , however faint . Bone nor walrus tusk ect does not have this . And bone , Ivory and most early composits will crack , due to dehydration ect or pressure of course.
I my library I had before my dear Ex sold off for pennies , I had the original manuscript , circa 1900 of the famous frozen Mammoth, that it was said at the time the expedition members cooked and ate some , UNTRUE. But one fact that struck me was that huge amounts of fossil Ivory was mined in Siberia , still at the time , 100s of tonnes per year. Most Ivory used in Europe before this time ( being pre 1900) and I cannot remember what centuries they talked about in all , was fossil Ivory , I mean in the 1600s ect AFRICA was wild and dangerous , and fossil Ivory seemingly in the Siberian tundra was plentiful . I have handled a lot of fossil Ivory and some comments on red , brownish, black coloration is indicative of mineralization seen in fossil Ivory , not such as African or Asian Ivory. Ivory is really tough stuff as seen by the use of fossil Ivory about 10,000 years or older and does not readily mineralize , as it takes decades to get a patina, usually only a tea color , like that of new items faked as old and colored with tea .
I hope this is informative if not only a few words

Hotspur · 29th August 2016, 03:45 AM

Uhuh

Sajen · 25th June 2016, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinreadline

What is ivory indee please ?

Think it was meant "indeed".

VANDERNOTTE · 25th June 2016, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Think it was meant "indeed".

that is correct

thinreadline · 27th June 2016, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDERNOTTE

that is correct

Ha ha , OK I understand now ... I thought it was some French technical term for an ivory like substance made in India !

Ed · 27th June 2016, 03:58 PM

Hi. Ivory vs bone is easy. Bone has tiny holes that you can see under magnification.

The "Hot wire" test is good for distinguishing between plastics and ivory though not all plastics will react clearly.

Barring fakery, I would bet on ivory. Also, Ivory cracks as an almost natural occurrence, plastic does not except under stress.

24th June 2016, 01:26 AM	#2
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The regularly alternating dark and light lines are characteristic of the type of celluloid known as “French ivory”, first made in the 1860s and often found in knife handles. (Shown is a knife with French ivory scales made by George Wostenholm of Sheffield). Impossible to say what environmental or traumatic effects caused the longitudinal fracture. With as much certainty as possible from merely photographic evidence, I vote “not ivory”. Attached Images

25th August 2016, 04:17 PM	#10
Silver Shield Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Phoenix Arizona USA Posts: 32	Ivory Identification Being a new member to this wonderful forum , I am not sure of all the information that has been written about Ivory. I have also forgotten all the technical terms , for being old and well worn .But in looking at elephant Ivory , I have always on all samples , I have seen ,not only these lines but also a crosshatch pattern , however faint . Bone nor walrus tusk ect does not have this . And bone , Ivory and most early composits will crack , due to dehydration ect or pressure of course. I my library I had before my dear Ex sold off for pennies , I had the original manuscript , circa 1900 of the famous frozen Mammoth, that it was said at the time the expedition members cooked and ate some , UNTRUE. But one fact that struck me was that huge amounts of fossil Ivory was mined in Siberia , still at the time , 100s of tonnes per year. Most Ivory used in Europe before this time ( being pre 1900) and I cannot remember what centuries they talked about in all , was fossil Ivory , I mean in the 1600s ect AFRICA was wild and dangerous , and fossil Ivory seemingly in the Siberian tundra was plentiful . I have handled a lot of fossil Ivory and some comments on red , brownish, black coloration is indicative of mineralization seen in fossil Ivory , not such as African or Asian Ivory. Ivory is really tough stuff as seen by the use of fossil Ivory about 10,000 years or older and does not readily mineralize , as it takes decades to get a patina, usually only a tea color , like that of new items faked as old and colored with tea . I hope this is informative if not only a few words

29th August 2016, 03:45 AM	#11
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 535	Uhuh Attached Images

1st July 2016, 04:13 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 535	A hot pin in bone smells like burning hair. A hot pin in ivory smells like burning cotton. Celluloid and other early plastics go back to the third quarter of the 19th century. Ivorine...hmmm.,,,composites of ground scrap ivory and glue go back as far as well. The Russian mastadon mined ivory of the earlier periods can fool you in some instances and has a somewhat different look than modern elephant. Especially if the mastadon stock was from the outer layers (imo). Cheers GC

2nd July 2016, 06:44 PM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	In this case, I find the lines to be too strongly visible so I suspect it is not genuine ivory. But it is very hard to say from only a photo. Maybe Thinreadline can provide more close-up photos?! Also please note that all British silversmiths used to mark their products with a mark indicating the year of manufacture. Check it out to see what year was yours made. http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html http://www.925-1000.com/dlc_sheffield.html

27th June 2016, 03:58 PM	#15
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 284	Hi. Ivory vs bone is easy. Bone has tiny holes that you can see under magnification. The "Hot wire" test is good for distinguishing between plastics and ivory though not all plastics will react clearly. Barring fakery, I would bet on ivory. Also, Ivory cracks as an almost natural occurrence, plastic does not except under stress.