Shotel draw

VANDOO · 21st June 2016, 06:28 PM

IN THAT CASE MY SCENARIO WILL NOT WORK AND ONE WOULD NOT WANT TO FIGHT WITHOUT A BELT AS THE PANTS TEND TO FALL DOWN.

thinreadline · 22nd June 2016, 12:09 AM

In battle the need for a 'quick' draw would be very rare . The sword would have been drawn and orientated correctly long before contact was made .

Jerseyman · 22nd June 2016, 01:35 PM

Hi Nkante,

My apologies if I'm misunderstanding something here, but your description states that the cutting edge of a shotel or gurade is on the inside (concave) edge of the curve rather than the outside (convex) edge. I have two gurades and they are both double-edged - so in theory they could be used either way round. But I've always assumed they were used like a cavalry sabre with the primary focus on attacking with the convex edge.

I'm in complete agreement with you that the logical draw from that position is as you describe - which would present the sharp convex edge to the opponent in a very efficient rising, attacking draw.

I suppose if it's sharp on both edges then either edge could be used by choice in combat.

The style of hilt seems to indicate a machete-style grip where the blade and forearm remain at roughly 90 degrees to each other - if that is the case it seems more logical to me to attack with the convex edge in a series of drawing cuts. Rather than the concave edge which would become a chopping action with the risk that the forwards-facing point would stick/jam into the shield or body of the opponent. This could be a serious disadvantage in a fight.

I've often been told that in un-armoured fights a sickle-style sword is useful for reaching over/past a shield to an exposed shoulder or head. I've also heard that meeting such a style of sword/attack in Dacia (?) led to changes in the Roman army's armour. I don't have references to support these assertions I'm afraid.

I also have a couple of Zande blades which are very clearly sharpened only on the concave edge. So I'm very aware that this style of blade does exist.

The development of practical weapons was almost always in reference to the context they developed in - indeed in response to the need to overcome some new obstacle/design. Nobody designs a fighting weapon that doesn't work and then continues to produce it. (I accept it is a different matter for ceremonial/ritual weapons) So of course there must have been cultural contexts where a convex-edge blade was the best fighting choice.

I guess what it boils down to is that I think shotel/gurades were used one way and Nkante has the opposite belief (if I'm reading right - apologies if not).

I'd be very interested if anyone has any historical references (written/visual) that would throw light onto the subject.

I'm also happy to be corrected on any of my historical assertions!

roanoa · 22nd June 2016, 03:46 PM

It seems that there is still some confusion: shotel is the sickle style sword sharpened on both edges vs. gurade (gorade) which is the sabre sharpened on one edge only. Having said that, this is a detail of a painting depicting the Battle of Dogali. It shows how the shotel was used. This painting (very large) shows a large variety of Abyssinian weapons with almost photographic accuracy.

roanoa · 22nd June 2016, 04:51 PM

You can Google "Battle of Dogali painting" to get the full picture. It's really amazing.

Jerseyman · 22nd June 2016, 05:48 PM

Ah - a distinction I was unaware of - thanks. It would appear I have a couple of shotel

A great picture as you say. I also note that the artist moved to the battle site and apparently stayed for nearly five years - so I have to suppose that in that time he would have learned how the locals really used their weapons. Therefore unlikely to be any artistic licence at play.

If this is an accurate representation of the traditional weapon grip, then I am as flummoxed as you regarding the draw.

The only way I can see to do it would be to place your right hand on the grip, fingers on top pointing towards your body, thumb underneath - as if about to place your hand on your hip - then pull the hilt around to your right (a quarter rotation). Drop your left hand down past your left hip to grip the base of the scabbard to steady it, then draw out and up to your right. By rotating your upper torso to your right you should also release your shoulder enough to be able to draw a 30 inch blade. As the point clears the scabbard the torsion in your wrist/shoulder would flick it forwards clearing your body and your wrist would rotate the blade clockwise into guard or the first attack.

I've used similar draws on a variety of blades worn on the back of the belt. It may seem clumsy in writing, but with a little practice it becomes a fluid and fast draw - particularly if the equipment allows it. If the blade slips easily from the scabbard for example.

Of course I am extrapolating from the information I have, rather than speaking from a position of historical knowledge. But in my experience, when you have certain fixed nodes of information, there are only a limited number of ways the variables can go together.

I take your point Thinreadline about the quick draw and of course you're right. But I'd also suggest that pragmatically, a warrior who carries weapons regularly is inevitably going to need to draw them in rapid response to a threat sometime, and it seems more likely to me that those who fight often are unlikely to put themselves in a position where it's awkward to get to their weapons. Just a thought.

Kronckew - that's great information and images - thanks. Amazing to see the damage that falx did!

I really hope someone has an answer to the traditional draw - it's always fascinating to see how different cultures resolve the same issue.

kronckew · 22nd June 2016, 05:51 PM

... ancilliary photos: roman helmets, earlier and with cross bar on the crown during/after dacian war. the 'crossed' one was actually found in dacia, modern day romania.

kronckew · 22nd June 2016, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerseyman

Hi Nkante,
...I've often been told that in un-armoured fights a sickle-style sword is useful for reaching over/past a shield to an exposed shoulder or head. I've also heard that meeting such a style of sword/attack in Dacia (?) led to changes in the Roman army's armour. I don't have references to support these assertions I'm afraid.
...

i have posted pictures earlier of a dacian falx being tested by romans in an earlier thread that discussed them with pics taken by one of the romans and found on an ancient SD card. (

) along with pics from trajan's column showing legionnaires in combat against them.

the roman helmet pre dacian war had a smooth dome, and post had an added re-enforcing cross ridge on the dome for added protection.

Link to machete thread

22nd June 2016, 03:46 PM	#4
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	It seems that there is still some confusion: shotel is the sickle style sword sharpened on both edges vs. gurade (gorade) which is the sabre sharpened on one edge only. Having said that, this is a detail of a painting depicting the Battle of Dogali. It shows how the shotel was used. This painting (very large) shows a large variety of Abyssinian weapons with almost photographic accuracy. Attached Images

22nd June 2016, 05:51 PM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,228	... ancilliary photos: roman helmets, earlier and with cross bar on the crown during/after dacian war. the 'crossed' one was actually found in dacia, modern day romania. Attached Images

21st June 2016, 06:28 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN THAT CASE MY SCENARIO WILL NOT WORK AND ONE WOULD NOT WANT TO FIGHT WITHOUT A BELT AS THE PANTS TEND TO FALL DOWN.

22nd June 2016, 12:09 AM	#2
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	In battle the need for a 'quick' draw would be very rare . The sword would have been drawn and orientated correctly long before contact was made .

22nd June 2016, 01:35 PM	#3
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Hi Nkante, My apologies if I'm misunderstanding something here, but your description states that the cutting edge of a shotel or gurade is on the inside (concave) edge of the curve rather than the outside (convex) edge. I have two gurades and they are both double-edged - so in theory they could be used either way round. But I've always assumed they were used like a cavalry sabre with the primary focus on attacking with the convex edge. I'm in complete agreement with you that the logical draw from that position is as you describe - which would present the sharp convex edge to the opponent in a very efficient rising, attacking draw. I suppose if it's sharp on both edges then either edge could be used by choice in combat. The style of hilt seems to indicate a machete-style grip where the blade and forearm remain at roughly 90 degrees to each other - if that is the case it seems more logical to me to attack with the convex edge in a series of drawing cuts. Rather than the concave edge which would become a chopping action with the risk that the forwards-facing point would stick/jam into the shield or body of the opponent. This could be a serious disadvantage in a fight. I've often been told that in un-armoured fights a sickle-style sword is useful for reaching over/past a shield to an exposed shoulder or head. I've also heard that meeting such a style of sword/attack in Dacia (?) led to changes in the Roman army's armour. I don't have references to support these assertions I'm afraid. I also have a couple of Zande blades which are very clearly sharpened only on the concave edge. So I'm very aware that this style of blade does exist. The development of practical weapons was almost always in reference to the context they developed in - indeed in response to the need to overcome some new obstacle/design. Nobody designs a fighting weapon that doesn't work and then continues to produce it. (I accept it is a different matter for ceremonial/ritual weapons) So of course there must have been cultural contexts where a convex-edge blade was the best fighting choice. I guess what it boils down to is that I think shotel/gurades were used one way and Nkante has the opposite belief (if I'm reading right - apologies if not). I'd be very interested if anyone has any historical references (written/visual) that would throw light onto the subject. I'm also happy to be corrected on any of my historical assertions!

22nd June 2016, 04:51 PM	#5
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	You can Google "Battle of Dogali painting" to get the full picture. It's really amazing.

22nd June 2016, 05:48 PM	#6
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Ah - a distinction I was unaware of - thanks. It would appear I have a couple of shotel A great picture as you say. I also note that the artist moved to the battle site and apparently stayed for nearly five years - so I have to suppose that in that time he would have learned how the locals really used their weapons. Therefore unlikely to be any artistic licence at play. If this is an accurate representation of the traditional weapon grip, then I am as flummoxed as you regarding the draw. The only way I can see to do it would be to place your right hand on the grip, fingers on top pointing towards your body, thumb underneath - as if about to place your hand on your hip - then pull the hilt around to your right (a quarter rotation). Drop your left hand down past your left hip to grip the base of the scabbard to steady it, then draw out and up to your right. By rotating your upper torso to your right you should also release your shoulder enough to be able to draw a 30 inch blade. As the point clears the scabbard the torsion in your wrist/shoulder would flick it forwards clearing your body and your wrist would rotate the blade clockwise into guard or the first attack. I've used similar draws on a variety of blades worn on the back of the belt. It may seem clumsy in writing, but with a little practice it becomes a fluid and fast draw - particularly if the equipment allows it. If the blade slips easily from the scabbard for example. Of course I am extrapolating from the information I have, rather than speaking from a position of historical knowledge. But in my experience, when you have certain fixed nodes of information, there are only a limited number of ways the variables can go together. I take your point Thinreadline about the quick draw and of course you're right. But I'd also suggest that pragmatically, a warrior who carries weapons regularly is inevitably going to need to draw them in rapid response to a threat sometime, and it seems more likely to me that those who fight often are unlikely to put themselves in a position where it's awkward to get to their weapons. Just a thought. Kronckew - that's great information and images - thanks. Amazing to see the damage that falx did! I really hope someone has an answer to the traditional draw - it's always fascinating to see how different cultures resolve the same issue.