1780's Brit/Irish/American? cavalry sword

Jim McDougall · 12th June 2016, 10:07 PM

I would like to commend Will M on his tenacity in researching this sword, and staying with it, despite the volume of responses, observations and views tendered by contributors in an imoressive volume of venues.
His first queries (found thus far) began in Feb. 2002 on sfi forum; there a very spirited discussion compiled much data similar to what we added here.

It seems the quest went dormant until in Feb 2015, when again it appeared on SFi; My Armoury and in March Journal of the American Revolution.
Then twice in our venue in 2016.

It seems that considerable information was expounded in all these venues over the past 14 years, and here in the last 5 months.

What I would note is that it would be most helpful when posting a query, to add some of the data thus far acquired if not a background of previous research already accomplished rather than posing it as a new query.
It would reduce a lot of unnecessary searching by participating members as well as sharing information already benchmarked for those of us trying to learn on these weapons.

I would point out that apparently it was discovered at some point in the research of Will, that a silversmith named Wyatt was active in the Philadelphia area 1797-98. I do not have the Bezdek reference but it seems one note suggests a Joseph Wyatt.

Peterson, in his silver hilted swords reference notes an index of silversmiths who MOUNTED SWORDS. I do not have the list, but this would suggest that a silversmith would indeed have mounted swords, so a swordsmith listing for a WYATT would not be necessary.
The references for British sword or silver smiths I do not believe include those in the colonies.

Just wanted to place this query and discussion in perspective, and as noted before, still glad to see it revived, just would have liked more extant data already discussed available.

Will M · 13th June 2016, 05:29 AM

Jim the photos do not show the leather grip where the seam joins, shrunk back a bit and the leather is old, dry, hard and does not appear to be a replacement. Scabbard leather is original, shrunk and brittle. I'll post photos to show this soon.

Will M · 13th June 2016, 03:37 PM

Shows leather shrinking and old black finish worn off and encrusting the grip wires. Leather is not completely hard as one would expect if over 200 years old.
Always good to take a second, third look at things as I now see the grip covering not to be original but has age.

Will M · 13th June 2016, 03:50 PM

Leather scabbard is original and once had a metal drag.

M ELEY · 13th June 2016, 06:20 PM

Could Wyatt be the merchant that sold the sword? Many guns of the period were marked not by the maker, but by the Birmingham merchants that sold the goods to the clientele. Perhaps a search of merchants for the time period might yield something?

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2016, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Could Wyatt be the merchant that sold the sword? Many guns of the period were marked not by the maker, but by the Birmingham merchants that sold the goods to the clientele. Perhaps a search of merchants for the time period might yield something?

Well made point Mark. In many cases not only in England, but Germany and others, blades were indeed marked by retailers or 'sword slippers', who acquired the blades and components from suppliers. In England for example, was the well known J J Runkel, whose name appeared on so many swords he was long thought to be a maker. He simply imported blades from his contacts in Germany, as was a common practice there over the years.
In Germany, P. Knecht was a merchandiser of swords, not a maker, but his name is profusely seen on blades.

I think C.C. suggested "Swords for Sea Service".....perhaps something there or in Southwick? I do not have these with me presently as the bookmobile is on the move and weight & balance did not permit as many books as I would like.

Roland_M · 14th June 2016, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

In Germany, P. Knecht was a merchandiser of swords, not a maker, but his name is profusely seen on blades.

Peter Knecht was a "Schwertfeger" (there is no translation for this term).

The job of a "Schwertfeger" (direct translated = Swordcleaner) is to polish the surface, put blade and handle together and fit the blade into the scabbard. In most cases the "Schwertfeger" also sell the finished sword and often was more famous and earned much more money than the blacksmith itself. He was a merchandiser and artisan in one.

Roland

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2016, 03:43 PM

Hi Will,
As I mentioned, I am very glad you posted this sword here, and as noted by Fernando a number of times. Clearly as I noted, you have been at this for a very long time (2002) and through many venues. What I was suggesting was that there was considerable observation and data imparted in many of the extracurricular discussions which may have been keenly pertinent here.

It seems clear that this sword is comprised of British sword components of c. 1750s-70s, and does seem refurbished probably sometime thereafter. I would presume the 'A57' markings likely are from British protocols, but of course have remained on the hilt and scabbard throat .

It seems apparant that the leather grips and scabbard were added, quite likely during the refurbishing of this sword. The blade was probably acquired and used in this assembly as well. It has been noted throughout most of the discussions that have transpired that this blade is of a continental European form with the distinctive clipped point. Blades were of course heavily trafficked into the colonies prior to the Revolution during the conflicts between the British and French, and certainly post Revolution as well.
It is known that British makers and suppliers still were sources for many swords even into the War of 1812 period.

While America had gained its autonomy politically, it remained in large degree British culturally as our own distinctive culture evolved.
This included the development of our armed forces, and the evolution of local and independant militia and guard groups. I would say that it is quite feasible for weapons such as this to have been fabricated ersatz for such local entities in the post Revolution years and likely early years of the 1800s.
That silversmiths furbished swords is well established, and likely they were not ALL silvered. On that note, I am wondering if this hilt shows evidence of ever having been silvered. One angle seems to show an unusual gleam for metal of this age.

Excellent detail Ibrahiim on the Wyatt silversmiths, and may well apply to what is noted on the activities and possibiity of even these British artisans having connections to this blade. The only deference I would have is the placement of the name on the blade contrary to the British convention of placing it on the spine of the blade.

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2016, 03:45 PM

Will, we crossed posts, I just saw the pics, thank you.
Indeed, the leather seems not as old, but hard to say when replaced, was it in the original reassembly of these components or much later?

13th June 2016, 03:37 PM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Shows leather shrinking and old black finish worn off and encrusting the grip wires. Leather is not completely hard as one would expect if over 200 years old. Always good to take a second, third look at things as I now see the grip covering not to be original but has age. Attached Images

13th June 2016, 03:50 PM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Leather scabbard is original and once had a metal drag. Attached Images

12th June 2016, 10:07 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	I would like to commend Will M on his tenacity in researching this sword, and staying with it, despite the volume of responses, observations and views tendered by contributors in an imoressive volume of venues. His first queries (found thus far) began in Feb. 2002 on sfi forum; there a very spirited discussion compiled much data similar to what we added here. It seems the quest went dormant until in Feb 2015, when again it appeared on SFi; My Armoury and in March Journal of the American Revolution. Then twice in our venue in 2016. It seems that considerable information was expounded in all these venues over the past 14 years, and here in the last 5 months. What I would note is that it would be most helpful when posting a query, to add some of the data thus far acquired if not a background of previous research already accomplished rather than posing it as a new query. It would reduce a lot of unnecessary searching by participating members as well as sharing information already benchmarked for those of us trying to learn on these weapons. I would point out that apparently it was discovered at some point in the research of Will, that a silversmith named Wyatt was active in the Philadelphia area 1797-98. I do not have the Bezdek reference but it seems one note suggests a Joseph Wyatt. Peterson, in his silver hilted swords reference notes an index of silversmiths who MOUNTED SWORDS. I do not have the list, but this would suggest that a silversmith would indeed have mounted swords, so a swordsmith listing for a WYATT would not be necessary. The references for British sword or silver smiths I do not believe include those in the colonies. Just wanted to place this query and discussion in perspective, and as noted before, still glad to see it revived, just would have liked more extant data already discussed available.

13th June 2016, 05:29 AM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Jim the photos do not show the leather grip where the seam joins, shrunk back a bit and the leather is old, dry, hard and does not appear to be a replacement. Scabbard leather is original, shrunk and brittle. I'll post photos to show this soon.

13th June 2016, 06:20 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Could Wyatt be the merchant that sold the sword? Many guns of the period were marked not by the maker, but by the Birmingham merchants that sold the goods to the clientele. Perhaps a search of merchants for the time period might yield something?

13th June 2016, 03:43 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	Hi Will, As I mentioned, I am very glad you posted this sword here, and as noted by Fernando a number of times. Clearly as I noted, you have been at this for a very long time (2002) and through many venues. What I was suggesting was that there was considerable observation and data imparted in many of the extracurricular discussions which may have been keenly pertinent here. It seems clear that this sword is comprised of British sword components of c. 1750s-70s, and does seem refurbished probably sometime thereafter. I would presume the 'A57' markings likely are from British protocols, but of course have remained on the hilt and scabbard throat . It seems apparant that the leather grips and scabbard were added, quite likely during the refurbishing of this sword. The blade was probably acquired and used in this assembly as well. It has been noted throughout most of the discussions that have transpired that this blade is of a continental European form with the distinctive clipped point. Blades were of course heavily trafficked into the colonies prior to the Revolution during the conflicts between the British and French, and certainly post Revolution as well. It is known that British makers and suppliers still were sources for many swords even into the War of 1812 period. While America had gained its autonomy politically, it remained in large degree British culturally as our own distinctive culture evolved. This included the development of our armed forces, and the evolution of local and independant militia and guard groups. I would say that it is quite feasible for weapons such as this to have been fabricated ersatz for such local entities in the post Revolution years and likely early years of the 1800s. That silversmiths furbished swords is well established, and likely they were not ALL silvered. On that note, I am wondering if this hilt shows evidence of ever having been silvered. One angle seems to show an unusual gleam for metal of this age. Excellent detail Ibrahiim on the Wyatt silversmiths, and may well apply to what is noted on the activities and possibiity of even these British artisans having connections to this blade. The only deference I would have is the placement of the name on the blade contrary to the British convention of placing it on the spine of the blade.

13th June 2016, 03:45 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,583	Will, we crossed posts, I just saw the pics, thank you. Indeed, the leather seems not as old, but hard to say when replaced, was it in the original reassembly of these components or much later?