Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

[Iain]

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

[fernando]

Yes ... Sir

[blue lander]

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I'm not sure if that last character is a poorly stamped A or M, but up close it looks like it might be something else altogether.

I think it's an M but the stamp wasn't fully flat. Could be wrong.

[blue lander]

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

[Iain]

Originally Posted by blue lander

I'm still cleaning the pommel off but so far it looks a lot like the Pommel on the one Ian posted above

Yes, its a very standard design and one I think of as solidly 19th century to best of what we know.

It's defined by the peaked mid ridge, often the use of a small bronze cap and engraved lateral plate.

A transition from the oldest rounded pommels.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Are there any examples of the type of stamp used by European and African Smiths? ....It occurred to me that the Europeans used stamps but the African style looks like one chisel and mallet combination only...not stamps...and or...that African work was often scratched on. not stamped. It also looks like European letters had the small tails at the ends of uprights but African capitals did not. Am I right in thinking that European work was stamped whilst the blade was hot...and not a method used by African smiths...resulting in mis strikes and less depth to the strike??

[Tordenskiold1721]

The blade could also be from a Dussack Ca 1570/80.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Interesting discussion. However I think it's important to keep in mind two things.

1. The markings on the forte plates was certainly done locally, it is engraved, not stamped as is typical and the mount was done within Africa. The symbols are typical and similar can be seen in the sword attached (formerly in my collection).

2. The blade marks are stamped deeply. I have zero doubts the blade stamps were done in Europe, it is my understanding these would be stamped while the blade as hot. Doing this after the blade left Europe would destroy the temper.

Engraving over stamping is quite typical when you see local additions to older blades within the context of takouba. Often fairly lightly scratched, or in the case of forte plates like this, a bit deeper. The difference to European stamps is quite clear when you handle these in person.

As for the meaning of the letters, I can't claim a better idea than any of the others posited here, however to my eyes the As are clearly Ms and one is badly stamped. I would doubt a clear meaning will ever be forthcoming from this inscription but that in do way hurts the appeal of this honest, hard working and quite old sword. I also favor a 17th century dating for this blade, likely originally a schiavona.

Iain, these are superb pictures and the provenance looks sound etc.To my eye the locally done marks appear to be scratched on... whilst European strike marks are deeper indicating "done when hot". Clearly the other parts including the often large wrap or Adabel, African hilt and scabbard are tribally decorated ...with exceptions; where massive, often whole blade European design has been done by the supplier such as on Ethiopian swords commissioned often in Solingen...probably complete with hilts...

There are a lot of similarities with these East West African weapons...My problem is that on the first page typically we have about six Ethiopian, Hausa Tuareg variants...

For Forum Panel consideration...Would it be better ...do you think... to have all these Atlantic to Red Sea swords on the same big thread so that cross referencing can be simple and since much of the detail is interrelated through all the different alphabet and hieroglyph additions, local blade smith marks and origins of European species etc ? ... There are such similarities that are so easily missed when the subject is fractured all over the different pages on Ethnographic ...One mega thread would solve this in an instant... and research, study and informed detail would be transformed ...

Another way to do it would be a new thread ...A comparison of Red Sea to Atlantic weapons ...Ethiopian, Tuareg, Berber, Hausa Ashanti....( I leave it to Forum how this may be worded )

Ibrahiim al Balooshi