Markings on a Takouba-mounted European Backsword

fernando · 19th May 2016, 02:15 PM

It looks like the symbol interpreted by some as a "2" could be a "Z", which would make the inscription be ZANCONA, another city in Tuscana Italy.
Surprizingly (or not) blue lander was aware of the "Z" letter assumption, although he has quoted the seller description in the Ethno forum thread as being ZACONA, whereas this (seller) has described it as ZANCONA.
Things getting a bit mixed up

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blue lander · 19th May 2016, 02:20 PM

The seller's description of the blade was "ZACONA TOSCANIA" but I don't see toscania written anywhere on the blade. I don't know where he got that from.

fernando · 19th May 2016, 02:34 PM

No mistery; he has certainly seen in the web, or already knew it himself, that ZANCONA is in Toscania. Joining both names in the announcement was merely a seller trick, i would say

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th May 2016, 02:45 PM

There is some notion suggested that the Zancona attribution may be an effort in waffle added by the seller... Notwithstanding that~ I see the interesting design decoration to the cuff at the throat which seems to be a snake style decor... The three dots appear to one side of the blade possibly a Talisman or...??

blue lander · 19th May 2016, 03:45 PM

I assume those carvings were added when this was converted to a Takouba, but I suppose there's no proof they weren't original...

Jim McDougall · 19th May 2016, 07:06 PM

It seems to me that this well patinated blade is certainly European and in my view of 18th c. That it is a straight backsword with these numerous fullers suggests to me it is Italian. While cavalry blades of the time were straight backsword type, and often Solingen, these triple fullers were usually on sabre blades at the back of the blade, but not that I recall on British or German.
The schiavona was used as a cavalry sword much more widely than often realized, using back sword blades well into the 19th century.

The letters used in this inscription seem too disassembled to have been an originally applied marking, and the letters 'N' are backwards, in Italy other inscriptions show the 'N' marked correctly. The triple dots are of course a well known component on European swords in groupings such as the well known 'sickle' marks.

The 'snake' with dots is also a known motif on European blades, but usually on the blade only.
This area of the blade to me looks like an 'adabal', a metal plate sandwiched at the ricasso of takoubas in many cases, and the application of these European markings along with the letters etc. seem more convincingly a pastiche by a native artisan.

While the matching of known Italian names of cities etc, is of course tempting to the unusually formed lettering, it is important to note that there was a long standing penchant with some Italian makers in earlier times to use groupings of incongruent letters in marking blades. In these cases, makers such as Caino and Picinino placed these in arranged sequences,
but seemed to make no sense.
While these may have been acrostics, as often done with invocations, some have never been interpreted.

blue lander · 19th May 2016, 09:53 PM

between the regular ricasso and the sandwiched bit, the original ricasso on this blade would have been about 5 inches long!

19th May 2016, 03:45 PM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I assume those carvings were added when this was converted to a Takouba, but I suppose there's no proof they weren't original... Attached Images

19th May 2016, 02:15 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It looks like the symbol interpreted by some as a "2" could be a "Z", which would make the inscription be ZANCONA, another city in Tuscana Italy. Surprizingly (or not) blue lander was aware of the "Z" letter assumption, although he has quoted the seller description in the Ethno forum thread as being ZACONA, whereas this (seller) has described it as ZANCONA. Things getting a bit mixed up .

19th May 2016, 02:20 PM	#2
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	The seller's description of the blade was "ZACONA TOSCANIA" but I don't see toscania written anywhere on the blade. I don't know where he got that from.

19th May 2016, 02:34 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No mistery; he has certainly seen in the web, or already knew it himself, that ZANCONA is in Toscania. Joining both names in the announcement was merely a seller trick, i would say .

19th May 2016, 02:45 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	There is some notion suggested that the Zancona attribution may be an effort in waffle added by the seller... Notwithstanding that~ I see the interesting design decoration to the cuff at the throat which seems to be a snake style decor... The three dots appear to one side of the blade possibly a Talisman or...??

19th May 2016, 07:06 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	It seems to me that this well patinated blade is certainly European and in my view of 18th c. That it is a straight backsword with these numerous fullers suggests to me it is Italian. While cavalry blades of the time were straight backsword type, and often Solingen, these triple fullers were usually on sabre blades at the back of the blade, but not that I recall on British or German. The schiavona was used as a cavalry sword much more widely than often realized, using back sword blades well into the 19th century. The letters used in this inscription seem too disassembled to have been an originally applied marking, and the letters 'N' are backwards, in Italy other inscriptions show the 'N' marked correctly. The triple dots are of course a well known component on European swords in groupings such as the well known 'sickle' marks. The 'snake' with dots is also a known motif on European blades, but usually on the blade only. This area of the blade to me looks like an 'adabal', a metal plate sandwiched at the ricasso of takoubas in many cases, and the application of these European markings along with the letters etc. seem more convincingly a pastiche by a native artisan. While the matching of known Italian names of cities etc, is of course tempting to the unusually formed lettering, it is important to note that there was a long standing penchant with some Italian makers in earlier times to use groupings of incongruent letters in marking blades. In these cases, makers such as Caino and Picinino placed these in arranged sequences, but seemed to make no sense. While these may have been acrostics, as often done with invocations, some have never been interpreted.

19th May 2016, 09:53 PM	#7
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	between the regular ricasso and the sandwiched bit, the original ricasso on this blade would have been about 5 inches long!