Destroying artwork

Norman McCormick · 15th May 2016, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

How the hell do we always manage to wind up with people running the show that do things like this?

Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!!

Robert · 15th May 2016, 10:00 PM

The immeasurable stupidity as well as the blind following of the new 'politically correct" doctrine that lead to this is far more dangerous than just what is shown here. Unless something is done that will change this kind of thinking I am afraid of what might come next. Can you imagine if this were to become the norm what our museums might look like in the future? Not just the removal of offencive objects, ivory, edged weapons, but possibly the wanton removal and destruction of these items as well as anything else that might be deemed offencive in the eyes of the politically correct. The removal of the ivory on the items originally being discussed is not only the senseless destruction of objects of art, but of history itself.

Rick · 15th May 2016, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Anyone who wants to make politics their career should automatically be barred from doing so!!!

We need a vaccine for this disease.

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2016, 11:13 PM

Rick, that vaccine is called :- REVOLUTION.

It works by destruction of the offending elements of the whole.

These elements can be identified by their inability to act in a way that is in harmony with basic human rights.

STORY

Several months ago the man who is arguably the foremost authority on the artistic aspects of the Javanese keris, and who almost single-handedly was responsible for the re-birth of the keris in Jawa asked me if I would accept a gift from him.

Anything you get for nothing must be good. Of course I said I'd be more than happy to accept his gift.

The gift duly arrived.

It was a number of very good ivory hilts.

I rang him and thanked him profusely, and asked why he had given them to me.

"Well Alan, I live in America, and I am very fearful that if it becomes known to the wrong people that I possess some ivory objects, my home will be invaded, the objects will be destroyed and I and my wife will be prosecuted. "

The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

Rick · 15th May 2016, 11:17 PM

Driven by:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...y/christy-text
How sad.

rickystl · 16th May 2016, 01:19 AM

He said he was going to "transform" America.

David · 16th May 2016, 01:24 AM

Well, these examples shown here are a terrible shame and i do believe that something most definitely needs to be done to both protect these precious and beautiful antiques as well as the lives of elephants and other ivory bearing animals that exist in this world. This issue is very complex, but i certainly cannot see how the destruction of antique ivory can save the elephant from extinction.
That said, i do fear that we are being a bit too fearful of our own private collections. These laws are, for the most part, governing commerce. I do not see that the U.S. government is going to march into any museums anytime soon and destroy the vast collections of antique ivory artifacts that can be found there. Bonham auctioned these weapons which is how they fell prey to this ridiculous law that affects antique ivory as well as new. Despite the fears of the American collector who sent his ivory hilts to Alan for fear of confiscation, i have serious doubts that private collections are in danger...at this moment. I do think the collectors in all fields that do come in contact with antique ivory need to band together, sooner rather than later, to petition for a more just reading of current laws to ensure that antique ivory is not problematic for authorities in the future.
I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end.

estcrh · 16th May 2016, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, these examples shown here are a terrible shame and i do believe that something most definitely needs to be done to both protect these precious and beautiful antiques as well as the lives of elephants and other ivory bearing animals that exist in this world. This issue is very complex, but i certainly cannot see how the destruction of antique ivory can save the elephant from extinction.
That said, i do fear that we are being a bit too fearful of our own private collections. These laws are, for the most part, governing commerce. I do not see that the U.S. government is going to march into any museums anytime soon and destroy the vast collections of antique ivory artifacts that can be found there. Bonham auctioned these weapons which is how they fell prey to this ridiculous law that affects antique ivory as well as new. I despite the fears of the American collector who sent his ivory hilts to Alan for fear of confiscation, i have serious doubts that private collections are in danger...at this moment. I do think the collectors in all fields that do come in contact with antique ivory need to band together, sooner rather than later, to petition for a more just reading of current laws to ensure that antique ivory is not problematic for authorities in the future.
I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end.

What you own is not a problem, it is when you try to sell it that you may have a problem.

ariel · 16th May 2016, 02:14 AM

Which at some stage we, or our heirs, will do.

But buying from overseas dealers is getting dicier with each passing day.

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2016, 05:52 AM

David, the gentleman who gave me his ivory hilts cannot be thought of as a collector. Yes, he does have some small collections of various artifacts, but essentially he is a consultant in S.E.Asian art, his principal clients are museums and governmental bodies. He consults to museums, curates their exhibitions and writes accompanying material.

He has no faith at all that ivory artifacts held by museums in the U.S.A. will remain untouched in the long term. This is the reason he needed to find a safe place for his ivory hilts, he needed to move outside the reach of governmental bodies in the U.S.A.

Tim Simmons · 16th May 2016, 06:50 AM

Looking at the situation another way. You have to ask why did the auction house carry on with the sale? You could see them as equal in the mindless vandalism. There motivation was money with obvious disregard for what is artwork. Had I been the manager I would have refused to take the objects in. There may be a black market for some very fine works but for most ivory pieces , who really wants to spend large sums of money on something you will loose on. Antique values can go up and down just like other investments. You can pass them on or swap them. If I was weathy enough to have pieces of the quality shown here I would donate them to a museum or university or give to a friend on my demise.
.

VANDOO · 16th May 2016, 06:59 AM

THE ONES WITH THE JOB OF MAKING NEW CITES REGULATIONS AND LAWS DON'T CARE IF LAWS ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS OR ARE GOOD OR BAD. THEY JUST NEED TO KEEP CRANKING OUT NEW ONES TO KEEP THEIR JOBS SO THERE CAN NEVER BE ENOUGH REGULATIONS OR LAWS FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW. THOSE HIRED TO ENFORCE THESE LAWS ARE HIRED TO MAKE NO DISTINCTION BUT ONLY TO CONFISCATE , DESTROY, FINE OR PROSECUTE ACCORDING TO THE BOOK. SO FOSSIL OR ANTIQUE , CULTURAL OR MASTERPIECE MEANS NOTHING TO THEM IF ITS ON THE LIST THE LAW MUST BE ENFORCED. THE ZOOS WHICH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A HAVEN FOR THE BREEDING OF ENDANGERED SPECIES ARE ALSO UNDER ATTACK TO FREE WILLY EVEN IF WILLIE CAN NOT SURVIVE IN THE WILD AND LOVES THE ONLY LIFE HE EVER HAS KNOWN. MUSEUMS ARE NOT SAFE FROM THEM EITHER. HUMANS ARE NOT THE MOST INTELLIGENT SPECIES BUT THE MOST MIXED UP.

Green · 16th May 2016, 10:43 AM

i have removed mine as Mr kronckew is gentlemanly enough to remove his.

My apology for being rather abrasive .

All is fine now mr Kronckew.

kronckew · 16th May 2016, 11:16 AM

i have removed the anecdotes in the post #25 & here as they offended you.

David · 16th May 2016, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end.

It's nice to see how well you all are capable of following my advise from post #30.

Frankly i am not particularly in favor of having to slash and burn entire parts of threads because some members are incapable of taking a moment to consider the impact of their words BEFORE they hit the "submit reply" button. Please stick to the issue at hand and leave religion and politics out of your responses. And maybe we should take a closer look at the ACTUAL LAWS as they stand today to avoid some of the panic and hyperbole i see brewing here. These laws govern COMMERCE of ivory, not ownership. As they currently stand they do not sanction the raiding of either museums or private collections. That is not to say that even as they stand these laws aren't problematic. Banning the sale of pre-CITES ivory, and certainly antique ivory, should be taken off the books. Gaining certification for such antique ivory should be made a simple and affordable process. Destruction of these pieces is a despicable act. But as the laws exist today they do NOT empower the U.S. government to raid your home to confiscate your private collection (though if you are dealing in these items a raid could take place that does not distinguish between your sales stock and your personal items). I absolutely agree that collectors should be able to sell off their collections and understand that for many collecting these objects is an investment as well as a passion. That is the aspects of these laws that must be addressed by a unified force of antique collectors. Are there any known petitions on this issue currently circulating? Is anybody doing any kind of organizing around this issue? Because i am pretty sure that collectors just sitting around complaining to each other on internet forums will not change anything at all. The case must be compiled calmly and intelligently with a well thought out process mapping alternatives and examples and presented though proper channels to authorities that might be open to a review of these laws.
If by now collectors are still unaware, here are the rules as they currently exist. Certain aspects of these rules remain unfortunately vague in places:
http://www.fws.gov/international/tra...d-answers.html
As a general practice i do not buy any weapon with ivory dress parts that must come through customs. Currently the risk is far too great and that's a pair of ivory dice i refuse to roll.

Tim Simmons · 16th May 2016, 05:05 PM

People that want ivory dressed weapons must set up their own regional online exchange and private sales sites. Not cross borders or using auction houses.

What is so dumb of the case here, is why a private sale was not sought in the first place, which is why the auction house and seller have been unbelievably stupid and possibly appallingly greedy.

silberschatzimsee · 7th March 2017, 11:23 PM

https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...ivory-seizure/

asomotif · 8th March 2017, 01:21 PM

Here the text, in case the link might dissapear in future.
Interesting info, I was not aware of this CITES 2013 guidelines.

The guideline makes some sense. But do they really think a barometer antique dealer is part of illegal Ivory smuggling and than offers for sale a piece of antique Ivory to blow his cover ?
Sad sad sad waste of police work.

----------
Quote...
----------
Clocks and barometer specialist Russ Allen, who runs Steam Mill Clocks, told ATG that 10 officers were involved in the seizure last month when he was arrested and bailed. It is believed a member of the public alerted Derbyshire police to the bronze mounted ivory thermometer that he had offered for sale online.

The incident has now been resolved with the police via a community resolution which enforced the seizure of the item.

Allen, who was represented by solicitor Bill Soughton at Johnson Partnership in Nottingham, was interviewed at Chesterfield Police Station by a local police officer and an officer from the Wildlife Crime Unit. The thermometer is an antique and pre-1947, but it is insufficiently worked under the amended 2013 CITES guidelines and therefore not legal to sell.

Alert Trade

Allen had not realised the item was not deemed worked and now hopes to alert other dealers to the regulation surrounding ivory. He said: “The trade need to be aware. We must stick together and pool our combined expertise to the benefit as a whole. The endangered species legislation is not going away and I suspect that it is going to get much stricter.”

A police spokeswoman confirmed a community resolution, which is used for less serious offences or anti-social behaviour, had been agreed and the item seized.

Maggie Campbell Pedersen, The Gemmological Association of Great Britain president and author of the 2015 book Ivory, said the December 2013 guidance changes on worked and unworked ivory had not been “widely enough publicised”.

“Simply to polish and mount an elephant tusk is no longer sufficient. It must now be carved on most of its surface to be considered ‘worked’.”

Allen said at the time of the police swoop, the police arrived “in a transit van and with CID and plain clothes policeman”.

He added: “The search warrant authorised the search and seizure of computers, telephones and bank records, the loss of which is bound to have significant consequences to anyone engaged in legitimate business. The police action is draconian and it makes me wonder how many perfectly legitimate and honest dealers are putting themselves unknowingly at risk.”

16th May 2016, 01:24 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Well, these examples shown here are a terrible shame and i do believe that something most definitely needs to be done to both protect these precious and beautiful antiques as well as the lives of elephants and other ivory bearing animals that exist in this world. This issue is very complex, but i certainly cannot see how the destruction of antique ivory can save the elephant from extinction. That said, i do fear that we are being a bit too fearful of our own private collections. These laws are, for the most part, governing commerce. I do not see that the U.S. government is going to march into any museums anytime soon and destroy the vast collections of antique ivory artifacts that can be found there. Bonham auctioned these weapons which is how they fell prey to this ridiculous law that affects antique ivory as well as new. Despite the fears of the American collector who sent his ivory hilts to Alan for fear of confiscation, i have serious doubts that private collections are in danger...at this moment. I do think the collectors in all fields that do come in contact with antique ivory need to band together, sooner rather than later, to petition for a more just reading of current laws to ensure that antique ivory is not problematic for authorities in the future. I would also prefer that this thread stay both civil and non-political to avoid a disastrous result in the end. Last edited by David; 16th May 2016 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Grammatical correction

16th May 2016, 10:43 AM	#13
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 326	i have removed mine as Mr kronckew is gentlemanly enough to remove his. My apology for being rather abrasive . All is fine now mr Kronckew. Last edited by Green; 17th May 2016 at 07:29 AM.

16th May 2016, 11:16 AM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	i have removed the anecdotes in the post #25 & here as they offended you. Last edited by kronckew; 16th May 2016 at 11:49 AM.

15th May 2016, 10:00 PM	#2
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	The immeasurable stupidity as well as the blind following of the new 'politically correct" doctrine that lead to this is far more dangerous than just what is shown here. Unless something is done that will change this kind of thinking I am afraid of what might come next. Can you imagine if this were to become the norm what our museums might look like in the future? Not just the removal of offencive objects, ivory, edged weapons, but possibly the wanton removal and destruction of these items as well as anything else that might be deemed offencive in the eyes of the politically correct. The removal of the ivory on the items originally being discussed is not only the senseless destruction of objects of art, but of history itself.

15th May 2016, 11:13 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Rick, that vaccine is called :- REVOLUTION. It works by destruction of the offending elements of the whole. These elements can be identified by their inability to act in a way that is in harmony with basic human rights. STORY Several months ago the man who is arguably the foremost authority on the artistic aspects of the Javanese keris, and who almost single-handedly was responsible for the re-birth of the keris in Jawa asked me if I would accept a gift from him. Anything you get for nothing must be good. Of course I said I'd be more than happy to accept his gift. The gift duly arrived. It was a number of very good ivory hilts. I rang him and thanked him profusely, and asked why he had given them to me. "Well Alan, I live in America, and I am very fearful that if it becomes known to the wrong people that I possess some ivory objects, my home will be invaded, the objects will be destroyed and I and my wife will be prosecuted. " The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave.

15th May 2016, 11:17 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Driven by: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...y/christy-text How sad.

16th May 2016, 01:19 AM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	He said he was going to "transform" America.

16th May 2016, 02:14 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Which at some stage we, or our heirs, will do. But buying from overseas dealers is getting dicier with each passing day.

16th May 2016, 05:52 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	David, the gentleman who gave me his ivory hilts cannot be thought of as a collector. Yes, he does have some small collections of various artifacts, but essentially he is a consultant in S.E.Asian art, his principal clients are museums and governmental bodies. He consults to museums, curates their exhibitions and writes accompanying material. He has no faith at all that ivory artifacts held by museums in the U.S.A. will remain untouched in the long term. This is the reason he needed to find a safe place for his ivory hilts, he needed to move outside the reach of governmental bodies in the U.S.A.

16th May 2016, 06:50 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	Looking at the situation another way. You have to ask why did the auction house carry on with the sale? You could see them as equal in the mindless vandalism. There motivation was money with obvious disregard for what is artwork. Had I been the manager I would have refused to take the objects in. There may be a black market for some very fine works but for most ivory pieces , who really wants to spend large sums of money on something you will loose on. Antique values can go up and down just like other investments. You can pass them on or swap them. If I was weathy enough to have pieces of the quality shown here I would donate them to a museum or university or give to a friend on my demise. .

16th May 2016, 06:59 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE ONES WITH THE JOB OF MAKING NEW CITES REGULATIONS AND LAWS DON'T CARE IF LAWS ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS OR ARE GOOD OR BAD. THEY JUST NEED TO KEEP CRANKING OUT NEW ONES TO KEEP THEIR JOBS SO THERE CAN NEVER BE ENOUGH REGULATIONS OR LAWS FROM THEIR POINT OF VIEW. THOSE HIRED TO ENFORCE THESE LAWS ARE HIRED TO MAKE NO DISTINCTION BUT ONLY TO CONFISCATE , DESTROY, FINE OR PROSECUTE ACCORDING TO THE BOOK. SO FOSSIL OR ANTIQUE , CULTURAL OR MASTERPIECE MEANS NOTHING TO THEM IF ITS ON THE LIST THE LAW MUST BE ENFORCED. THE ZOOS WHICH HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A HAVEN FOR THE BREEDING OF ENDANGERED SPECIES ARE ALSO UNDER ATTACK TO FREE WILLY EVEN IF WILLIE CAN NOT SURVIVE IN THE WILD AND LOVES THE ONLY LIFE HE EVER HAS KNOWN. MUSEUMS ARE NOT SAFE FROM THEM EITHER. HUMANS ARE NOT THE MOST INTELLIGENT SPECIES BUT THE MOST MIXED UP.

16th May 2016, 05:05 PM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	People that want ivory dressed weapons must set up their own regional online exchange and private sales sites. Not cross borders or using auction houses. What is so dumb of the case here, is why a private sale was not sought in the first place, which is why the auction house and seller have been unbelievably stupid and possibly appallingly greedy.

7th March 2017, 11:23 PM	#17
silberschatzimsee Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 90	https://www.antiquestradegazette.com...ivory-seizure/

8th March 2017, 01:21 PM	#18
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	Here the text, in case the link might dissapear in future. Interesting info, I was not aware of this CITES 2013 guidelines. The guideline makes some sense. But do they really think a barometer antique dealer is part of illegal Ivory smuggling and than offers for sale a piece of antique Ivory to blow his cover ? Sad sad sad waste of police work. ---------- Quote... ---------- Clocks and barometer specialist Russ Allen, who runs Steam Mill Clocks, told ATG that 10 officers were involved in the seizure last month when he was arrested and bailed. It is believed a member of the public alerted Derbyshire police to the bronze mounted ivory thermometer that he had offered for sale online. The incident has now been resolved with the police via a community resolution which enforced the seizure of the item. Allen, who was represented by solicitor Bill Soughton at Johnson Partnership in Nottingham, was interviewed at Chesterfield Police Station by a local police officer and an officer from the Wildlife Crime Unit. The thermometer is an antique and pre-1947, but it is insufficiently worked under the amended 2013 CITES guidelines and therefore not legal to sell. Alert Trade Allen had not realised the item was not deemed worked and now hopes to alert other dealers to the regulation surrounding ivory. He said: “The trade need to be aware. We must stick together and pool our combined expertise to the benefit as a whole. The endangered species legislation is not going away and I suspect that it is going to get much stricter.” A police spokeswoman confirmed a community resolution, which is used for less serious offences or anti-social behaviour, had been agreed and the item seized. Maggie Campbell Pedersen, The Gemmological Association of Great Britain president and author of the 2015 book Ivory, said the December 2013 guidance changes on worked and unworked ivory had not been “widely enough publicised”. “Simply to polish and mount an elephant tusk is no longer sufficient. It must now be carved on most of its surface to be considered ‘worked’.” Allen said at the time of the police swoop, the police arrived “in a transit van and with CID and plain clothes policeman”. He added: “The search warrant authorised the search and seizure of computers, telephones and bank records, the loss of which is bound to have significant consequences to anyone engaged in legitimate business. The police action is draconian and it makes me wonder how many perfectly legitimate and honest dealers are putting themselves unknowingly at risk.”