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2nd May 2016, 02:31 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Chino, CA.
Posts: 219
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What's up with the hinged guard on post #14 ?
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2nd May 2016, 05:57 AM
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#2 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Hello Scinde,
Great handle!!!!! Thank you for reviving this great thread, and it would be excellent to get more going on these fascinating swords of the British Raj. The sabre I have (which I do not have access to presently) is one of the Paget pattern (#6480) which was India Stores Pattern with three bar gothic hilt (M1821) and had a blade similar to M1796 with hatchet point . If I recall there seems to have been two variations one to Bengal, one to Madras of 31" and 33" lengths. I do not have the measurements on mine. The blade, while of the M1796 form, was not as heavy. The MOLE stamp on blade back near forte. The hilt was virtually identical to the British colonial sabre shown in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" ( E. Wagner,1967, p.231, pl.8). The marking 21C, if I recall was on the hilt, stamped with numbers and letter in line, same size. The marking you describe sounds intriguing, and would like to know more on it . By your pseudonym, sounds like you have a keen interest in the Frontier Field Force, please tell me more. Welcome to our forum!!! Ariel, very nice example!!! especially with inscribed blade. All best regards Jim |
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2nd May 2016, 09:56 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Here are what I believe to be 2 more Indian swords; the one with the modified guard, I think was with the Indian Mountain division.That sword is also marked on the guard " O.F.A. 20," and on top of the scabbard R.11.00 & 42 R A .
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3rd May 2016, 11:27 AM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 63
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drac2k,
That looks like the coat of arms for Bharatpur State. See: http://www.flagheritagefoundation.or...ian-states.pdf |
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3rd May 2016, 12:23 PM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,258
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Thank you for the information and that very informative link !
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3rd May 2016, 09:11 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 27
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Frontier Field Force
Quote:
Thanks for response and welcome. The marking on back edge of blade near hilt is fairly typical for Mole and others, some Wilkinson blades marked on ricasso; whereas from my observations, regimental markings are generally found on the hilt, but sometimes on the blade. I'd still be interested to know the dimensions of your blade when convenient and if possible. I've held a developing interest in EIC and Indian Army for something close to forty years, which primarily included the subjects of uniform, accoutrements, associated bits & pieces and of course swords, now primarily swords. In relation to European Officers swords, my collection covers mainly cavalry, but also touching on Artillery, Engineers and Infantry. Alongside this I've also maintained a fairly serious interest in troopers swords, and find that (unless point broken and re-ground, which I very much doubt), the blades circa 1860-1900 across Bengal, Madras and Bombay can vary from nominally 30" inches up to 33" as you say, with considerable variation in hilt type. Interests to do with Cavalry & Irregular Cavalry etc., one regiment in particular the 3rd Bombay Light Cavalry, as I have the sword that was carried by Captain Forbes when he lead the charge of the 3rd Bombay Cavalry at Kooshab (Persia) in 1857. Core areas of study which have developed are Scinde Camel Corps, Poona Horse, Scinde Horse and Corps of Guides, Punjab Cavalry, their swords and others. Regards, Gordon |
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10th November 2023, 08:59 PM
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 91
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Adding another example that recently came my way. 1796 pattern style blade with 1821 pattern three-bar guard. Unfortunately, no maker markings or dates on the hilt or blade. Looks to have some age and quite robust and heavy. Certainly, a fighter!
Blade Length: 33” (83,9cm) Hilt & Blade Length: 38 ¾” (98,4cm) -Geoffrey |
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10th November 2023, 10:10 PM
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#8 |
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Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 10,281
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Geoffrey! Thank you for reviving this thread, and so glad you're still at it with the 'swords of the Raj'
 It seems we are a limited bunch as this area of collecting and study is not widely brought up. What a great example of these 'colonial' sabers (as Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", 1967 calls them). It seems that these 'Paget Pattern" #6480 (Wilkinson, but Mole produced many for them) were in 31 1/2" blades for Madras and Bombay forces; while the 33" were deemed for Bengal. By those facts, very possible this might have been for a Bengal cavalry regiment, thus a good chance for lancers. My example (by Mole) is marked to 21C, from 1904 called "Daly's Horse" but a unit of Frontier Force. Pretty exciting history of all these cavalry regiments of the Raj. No idea what the numbers below 21C mean, there were so any number combinations with administrative coding. |
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21st November 2023, 05:59 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Colorado
Posts: 91
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Hi Jim, thank you for the information! I did not know of the designations for differentiating blade lengths and the possible associated with the Bengal forces with the 33” size. Your example is very similar and you’re lucky to have stampings attributed to the 21st calvary, a nice slice of history provenance. I will provide a few links that I have found if anybody is interested in some more information. The first: the Imperial War Museum, second: Australian War Memorial, and third: a brief Youtube video of the history and description of the type.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30001638 https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C226996 https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=k92PstHFQRM -Geoffrey |
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