How did they measure sword blades?

Jim McDougall · 25th April 2016, 05:45 PM

As always Jens, you pose fascinating questions, as only a master of the esoterica of Indian arms with many decades of study could!

It seems this topic has come up a number of times over the years, and it seems like it was years ago when we were poring through A.L. Basham's great work.

It seems the barley corn was a key element in standards of measure in a number of regions and cultures (it seems it remains a measure in U.K. shoe sizes if the note I saw on line is correct).
In study on the Khevsur's of the remote Caucasian regions of Georgia, their tradition of dueling typically did not result in notable wounds beyond bruises, however if a man was wounded, he was entitled to compensation.
This was determined by measuring each wound using BARLEY CORNS.
("Seven League Boots", R.Halliburton, 1935).

As you note, the key is 'how many barley corns determine the finger width?'.

Using a standard of measure which could obviously vary depending on the item being used ( an arms length; a pace or foot length etc) would result in certain disparities of course,

I think most of these would be 'rule of thumb'

sorry.

The length of the shamshir by using geometric methods seem like it would be by the measure from root to blade point in straight line, rather like TV sets are measured by the straight diagonal corner to corner on the screen.

Like most things, determinates are relative and it seems subjective.
The best blades (or 'good' blades) are determined by length? It would depend on by whose standards. A 'good' cavalry blade is better if longer for its reach from horseback.....but then Rajputs usually dismounted to fight, so then would a shorter sword be better...for the close quarters melee?

A lot of relativity, subjectivity and interpretation as far as understanding what these things meant in their times as described by contemporaries, but opens intriguing doors to understanding them better.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th April 2016, 06:20 PM

Jim, it is interesting to notice, that Jahangir was borne 1569 AD and ruled 1605-1627 AD.
The quote from Hindu Arms and Ritual is from 1570 AD.
So it is likely, but not proven, that the same measurers were used in his time. To this can be added, that the swords shown, following the 1570 text shows three swords, and at least two of them have/are European blades!!!
I am really wondering, why would they show two European swords - and one nimcha??
The author had a great varity of swords to show, and does so later, but why choose these three swords, when it comes to the blade length??

Jim McDougall · 25th April 2016, 06:44 PM

You bring up excellent points Jens!
If a measure of sword blades prevalent in India, and in a set period (c.1570), was in place, then how would blades from external sources be placed in accord with the 'superstitious' or traditional standards?

I had not even thought of that factor given the vast volume of blades which entered Indian entrepots from Europe and other sources. If these standards were so rigidly applied, then would many of the blades have been dismissed because they fell outside required standards such as these measures?

It certainly does not seem so, but perhaps such things were not particularly adhered to in later times as colonial powers intervened and the convenience of available blades increased along with the situation of diminishing local industry.

Jens Nordlunde · 25th April 2016, 09:34 PM

Should I guess, then I would say, that they maybe later paid less attention to the length of the swords, and more to from where the swords came. Guessing of course, as the superstition was very big - still is in some areas - even in Europe. Dont leave a pair of sissors open on a table, dont lick an iron knife, dont give your friend a knife, you never know when he will use it on you, if you see a black kat crossing the street in front of you.... and so on.
Maybe the English's, German's, Italian's and the othe blade producing countries did know about the demand of the 'lucky' and 'unlucky' lengths of the blades - I dont know.
But I do believe that the blades were measures along the backside of the blade, and not in a straight line.

A. G. Maisey · 25th April 2016, 11:11 PM

Jawa/Bali are historically Indianised states.

In both places one of the ways in which to determine suitability of a keris for its owner was/is to measure the length of the blade using various formulas. One of these formulas involves finger width.

The correct blade length is dependent upon the width of each individual owner's fingers. It is not a universal measurement: the blade that is perfect for me might spell disaster for somebody else.

One of the ways in which the actual measurement is done is by laying alternating index fingers on the width of the blade> left finger>right finger>left finger>right finger --- and so on until the point is reached, if you finish with too little remnant to accommodate another finger, or if there is an overhang of the last finger, there are varying schools of thought about how to deal with this.

Jim McDougall · 25th April 2016, 11:31 PM

I had read somewhere that keris were measured using thumb width, but not sure of accuracy of that statement. I have little knowledge on the keris, but do know there is of course an enormous amount of superstition and religious elements at hand in their character. I have always understood the number of luk (waves) were auspicious and certain number might be unlucky.
Also the character of the pamor was key in determining the blade's effect toward the owner. I have always wondered if blades were custom made for clients or if the purchase of blades was purely happenstance and each blade had to be scrutinized for these features' compatibility to each owner.

Naturally the imported blade phenomenon had no effect on the keris in its cultural sphere(s) so that was not a factor in its matters.

Jens, I think you are right, in Indian context the blades were measured along the back of the blade profile. I doubt that European blade producers had any concept of the superstitious matters involved with foreign swords.
Blades were produced according to developing western technologies and much more involved with blades which could be used effectively in both cut and thrust.

A. G. Maisey · 26th April 2016, 09:10 AM

Jim, I know of a number of ways in which keris blades were measured, as I wrote:- "---one of the ways in which to determine suitability ---"

the fingers can be used in various ways, a folded palm leaf, or a length of cord can be used. There are lots of ways.

Sometimes a keris would/will be made to a specific measurement, but if a believer is buying an already made keris he will check measurement before parting with money.

As to "luck", what is lucky for you might be very unlucky for me. The amount of belief surrounding the keris is enormous.

25th April 2016, 05:45 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	As always Jens, you pose fascinating questions, as only a master of the esoterica of Indian arms with many decades of study could! It seems this topic has come up a number of times over the years, and it seems like it was years ago when we were poring through A.L. Basham's great work. It seems the barley corn was a key element in standards of measure in a number of regions and cultures (it seems it remains a measure in U.K. shoe sizes if the note I saw on line is correct). In study on the Khevsur's of the remote Caucasian regions of Georgia, their tradition of dueling typically did not result in notable wounds beyond bruises, however if a man was wounded, he was entitled to compensation. This was determined by measuring each wound using BARLEY CORNS. ("Seven League Boots", R.Halliburton, 1935). As you note, the key is 'how many barley corns determine the finger width?'. Using a standard of measure which could obviously vary depending on the item being used ( an arms length; a pace or foot length etc) would result in certain disparities of course, I think most of these would be 'rule of thumb' sorry. The length of the shamshir by using geometric methods seem like it would be by the measure from root to blade point in straight line, rather like TV sets are measured by the straight diagonal corner to corner on the screen. Like most things, determinates are relative and it seems subjective. The best blades (or 'good' blades) are determined by length? It would depend on by whose standards. A 'good' cavalry blade is better if longer for its reach from horseback.....but then Rajputs usually dismounted to fight, so then would a shorter sword be better...for the close quarters melee? A lot of relativity, subjectivity and interpretation as far as understanding what these things meant in their times as described by contemporaries, but opens intriguing doors to understanding them better.

25th April 2016, 06:20 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, it is interesting to notice, that Jahangir was borne 1569 AD and ruled 1605-1627 AD. The quote from Hindu Arms and Ritual is from 1570 AD. So it is likely, but not proven, that the same measurers were used in his time. To this can be added, that the swords shown, following the 1570 text shows three swords, and at least two of them have/are European blades!!! I am really wondering, why would they show two European swords - and one nimcha?? The author had a great varity of swords to show, and does so later, but why choose these three swords, when it comes to the blade length??

25th April 2016, 06:44 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	You bring up excellent points Jens! If a measure of sword blades prevalent in India, and in a set period (c.1570), was in place, then how would blades from external sources be placed in accord with the 'superstitious' or traditional standards? I had not even thought of that factor given the vast volume of blades which entered Indian entrepots from Europe and other sources. If these standards were so rigidly applied, then would many of the blades have been dismissed because they fell outside required standards such as these measures? It certainly does not seem so, but perhaps such things were not particularly adhered to in later times as colonial powers intervened and the convenience of available blades increased along with the situation of diminishing local industry.

25th April 2016, 09:34 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Should I guess, then I would say, that they maybe later paid less attention to the length of the swords, and more to from where the swords came. Guessing of course, as the superstition was very big - still is in some areas - even in Europe. Dont leave a pair of sissors open on a table, dont lick an iron knife, dont give your friend a knife, you never know when he will use it on you, if you see a black kat crossing the street in front of you.... and so on. Maybe the English's, German's, Italian's and the othe blade producing countries did know about the demand of the 'lucky' and 'unlucky' lengths of the blades - I dont know. But I do believe that the blades were measures along the backside of the blade, and not in a straight line.

25th April 2016, 11:11 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jawa/Bali are historically Indianised states. In both places one of the ways in which to determine suitability of a keris for its owner was/is to measure the length of the blade using various formulas. One of these formulas involves finger width. The correct blade length is dependent upon the width of each individual owner's fingers. It is not a universal measurement: the blade that is perfect for me might spell disaster for somebody else. One of the ways in which the actual measurement is done is by laying alternating index fingers on the width of the blade> left finger>right finger>left finger>right finger --- and so on until the point is reached, if you finish with too little remnant to accommodate another finger, or if there is an overhang of the last finger, there are varying schools of thought about how to deal with this.

25th April 2016, 11:31 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,292	I had read somewhere that keris were measured using thumb width, but not sure of accuracy of that statement. I have little knowledge on the keris, but do know there is of course an enormous amount of superstition and religious elements at hand in their character. I have always understood the number of luk (waves) were auspicious and certain number might be unlucky. Also the character of the pamor was key in determining the blade's effect toward the owner. I have always wondered if blades were custom made for clients or if the purchase of blades was purely happenstance and each blade had to be scrutinized for these features' compatibility to each owner. Naturally the imported blade phenomenon had no effect on the keris in its cultural sphere(s) so that was not a factor in its matters. Jens, I think you are right, in Indian context the blades were measured along the back of the blade profile. I doubt that European blade producers had any concept of the superstitious matters involved with foreign swords. Blades were produced according to developing western technologies and much more involved with blades which could be used effectively in both cut and thrust.

26th April 2016, 09:10 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jim, I know of a number of ways in which keris blades were measured, as I wrote:- "---one of the ways in which to determine suitability ---" the fingers can be used in various ways, a folded palm leaf, or a length of cord can be used. There are lots of ways. Sometimes a keris would/will be made to a specific measurement, but if a believer is buying an already made keris he will check measurement before parting with money. As to "luck", what is lucky for you might be very unlucky for me. The amount of belief surrounding the keris is enormous.