A blunderbuss with an early lock

Pukka Bundook · 2nd April 2016, 09:07 PM

I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback.

If only it could talk!

Richard.

Fernando K · 2nd April 2016, 10:28 PM

Hello

Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks

Affectionately. Fernando K

Shakethetrees · 3rd April 2016, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks

Affectionately. Fernando K

I suspect the screw is a replacement. A very minor consideration on a gun of this age!

A very nice weapon, and one that could easily find a home in my pile.

M ELEY · 3rd April 2016, 04:53 AM

Awesome early blunderbuss, Fernando! It kind of reminded me of a wall gun (as in those mammoth swivel types protecting forts). I know it's not, based on the length, but I'm with Richard that it could easily have been a coach gun.

About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. If it is ash, is this a common wood for a gun stock? Not my area, so just thinking aloud and hoping for education on this! Wormy ash was the #1 choice for pike hafts-

Pukka Bundook · 3rd April 2016, 05:42 AM

RE ash,

No clue on Portugal, but ash was used at this time in England and Northern Europe, even for matchlock tillers/stocks. It wasn't the only wood used, as walnut, fruitwood and elm were used and walnut being the most popular. Maple /sycamore used as well.

The ring type vise pin in the cock is more Spanish ,Portuguese/Mediterranean, but very practical and sometimes seen even in Scotland. Could well be a replacement sometime in its very long life.

Has the barrel any proofs?

iskender · 3rd April 2016, 08:48 PM

good evening ,aside the yaw-screw i possess a very similar rifle in its original configuration ,the allmost identical barrel has 2 british proofmarks on the left side of the barrel. the gun is 84 cm long . there is a good chance this very early doglock-carbine is from england. (my guess) iskender Switzerland

iskender · 3rd April 2016, 09:02 PM

gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender

fernando · 24th July 2019, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

... I suspect the screw is a replacement...

Yes, indeed. I have just checked that with the previous owner, who replaced it himself.

fernando · 4th April 2016, 02:36 PM

Thank you guys for your kind and wise considerations ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback.
If only it could talk!...

I don’t think the hanging loop was a for a formal shoulder ‘bandolier’; maybe for a belt hanging hook, so that you had your hands free. It could even be to hang the gun on the wall, when at rest. As you say, if it could speak …

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello
Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks
Affectionately. Fernando K

Gracias por la nota, Fernando

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

... A very nice weapon, and one that could easily find a home in my pile.

Considering you already have a pile, you don’t need this one more

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. ...

Well captain, the collector fellow who sold me this piece is a timber man. He reminds that walnut is a rather wormy wood; of which potentially this stock was made of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

...Has the barrel any proofs?

So far i don’t discern any proof marks, neither on the barrel nor in the lock, under the heavy patina.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender

Ah, the typology of shoulder guns. In my language they are generically called espingardas; an ancient type may be called mosquete, a later short one a carabina and the ones with flared muzzles (blunderbusses) are bacamartes.

Concernung the 'flinte' ... here for such attribution we call it pederneira (from the latin pretinariu- petrinu= stone) whereas the Spanish call it chispa (spark).

Pukka Bundook · 4th April 2016, 03:06 PM

Fernando,

Re the sling bar;
this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches. The gun could hang down at the side, leaving the hands free, as the guard was also responsible for blowing the coach horn.
The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side.
I am not saying this gun Was an English coaching blunderbuss as I don't think it was, but I believe it was carried in this fashion beyond any real doubt.

As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :-)

Best regards,

Richard.

fernando · 4th April 2016, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

... this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches...
The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side ...As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :

I know it works fine the way you mention, Richard; i was only realizing that it can also hang from different spots. In my eyes i don't see this particular gun in so formal service, but more like a private weapon. But it is only my imagination ... at least so far.

Pukka Bundook · 4th April 2016, 04:00 PM

Iskender,

Thank you for the explanation!! I had some of it from German hunting book, and it Still confuses me!

Fernando,

Yes, as you suggest, it could be hung from anything with this butterfly swivel, and I also believe you are right regarding it being a private weapon.

Still, such a swivel was very useful, see below;

[IMG][/IMG]

fernando · 4th April 2016, 05:05 PM

Quite nice, thanks. Mine hangs vertically ...

.

Philip · 4th April 2016, 10:48 PM

Fernando,
The dog-lock on your gun is considerable interest. This type is most associated with England, mid-to-latter 17th cent. There is an example whose cock jaw screw has a ring terminus, as on a miquelet, on a musket ca. 1650 in the Tower of London collection (now Royal Armouries Mus.), inv. no. XII-48. The lock on that gun, however, is of more archaic form than yours since it has a 3-bolt attachment to the stock, not the 2 as on yours. The shape of its plate is also patterned after that of the earlier snaphaunce, whereas your blunderbuss' lockplate is the more usual "French" type that became standard as the 17th cent. drew to a close.

The use of the dog-lock also spread to northern Germany. The Livrustkammaren in Stockholm has two pieces relevant to your lock, albeit in very decorative, luxus-sporting guise -- a detached lock signed Paul Rolof, Stettin (now a part of Poland), ca. 1680, and a complete rifle by Berndt Orther, also of Stettin but a decade later. The shape of the cock and lockplate on both are very similar to the mechanism on your gun, but the jaw screw terminates in a slotted bulb, not ring. These German locks also feature a 2-bolt attachment to the stock.

So these examples help corroborate the attribution of last quarter of 17th cent. to the lock on your gun. It could be an outlier of slightly later date from a very conservative area, but considering that the true flintlock with internal half-cock safety had started to become more and more popular after the mid-17th cent., I rather doubt that dog-lock manufacture persisted much after ca. 1700.

The examples referenced above can be seen in H. L. Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965). Also, it is worth noting from Torsten Lenk's writing (THE FLINTLOCK, Swedish edition 1939, English 2007) that the dog lock was NOT the predecessor to the "true" flintlock -- it existed contemporaneously to it, and appeared AFTER the latter came into existence.

3rd April 2016, 08:48 PM	#6
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	britisch doglock ? good evening ,aside the yaw-screw i possess a very similar rifle in its original configuration ,the allmost identical barrel has 2 british proofmarks on the left side of the barrel. the gun is 84 cm long . there is a good chance this very early doglock-carbine is from england. (my guess) iskender Switzerland

3rd April 2016, 09:02 PM	#7
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	british doglock ? gentlemen ; Sorry for calling my carbine a rifle as it has no rifling and that is a inacurat therm for it. .It is Just the fakt that in switzerland most of the men call every "rifle" that looks like a broomstick a " Flinte" even when it is a full auto assault rifle ! gretings iskender

4th April 2016, 04:00 PM	#12
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Iskender, Thank you for the explanation!! I had some of it from German hunting book, and it Still confuses me! Fernando, Yes, as you suggest, it could be hung from anything with this butterfly swivel, and I also believe you are right regarding it being a private weapon. Still, such a swivel was very useful, see below; [IMG][/IMG] Attached Images

4th April 2016, 05:05 PM	#13
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Quite nice, thanks. Mine hangs vertically ... . Attached Images

4th April 2016, 10:48 PM	#14
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	a dog will have his day... Fernando, The dog-lock on your gun is considerable interest. This type is most associated with England, mid-to-latter 17th cent. There is an example whose cock jaw screw has a ring terminus, as on a miquelet, on a musket ca. 1650 in the Tower of London collection (now Royal Armouries Mus.), inv. no. XII-48. The lock on that gun, however, is of more archaic form than yours since it has a 3-bolt attachment to the stock, not the 2 as on yours. The shape of its plate is also patterned after that of the earlier snaphaunce, whereas your blunderbuss' lockplate is the more usual "French" type that became standard as the 17th cent. drew to a close. The use of the dog-lock also spread to northern Germany. The Livrustkammaren in Stockholm has two pieces relevant to your lock, albeit in very decorative, luxus-sporting guise -- a detached lock signed Paul Rolof, Stettin (now a part of Poland), ca. 1680, and a complete rifle by Berndt Orther, also of Stettin but a decade later. The shape of the cock and lockplate on both are very similar to the mechanism on your gun, but the jaw screw terminates in a slotted bulb, not ring. These German locks also feature a 2-bolt attachment to the stock. So these examples help corroborate the attribution of last quarter of 17th cent. to the lock on your gun. It could be an outlier of slightly later date from a very conservative area, but considering that the true flintlock with internal half-cock safety had started to become more and more popular after the mid-17th cent., I rather doubt that dog-lock manufacture persisted much after ca. 1700. The examples referenced above can be seen in H. L. Blackmore, GUNS AND RIFLES OF THE WORLD (1965). Also, it is worth noting from Torsten Lenk's writing (THE FLINTLOCK, Swedish edition 1939, English 2007) that the dog lock was NOT the predecessor to the "true" flintlock -- it existed contemporaneously to it, and appeared AFTER the latter came into existence.

2nd April 2016, 09:07 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I note Fernando, that it has a sling loop, so a sling could pass around the body and over the opposite shoulder, in the same manner that a Royal Mail B-buss would be carried. Very useful on a coach or mounted on horseback. If only it could talk! Richard.

2nd April 2016, 10:28 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hello Only to add that the screw that closes the jaws ends in a ring, common in Mediterranean locks Affectionately. Fernando K

3rd April 2016, 04:53 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Awesome early blunderbuss, Fernando! It kind of reminded me of a wall gun (as in those mammoth swivel types protecting forts). I know it's not, based on the length, but I'm with Richard that it could easily have been a coach gun. About the stock- I'm assuming its 'wormy ash', based on the worm holes? Or do other woods get those pesky moth larvae as well. If it is ash, is this a common wood for a gun stock? Not my area, so just thinking aloud and hoping for education on this! Wormy ash was the #1 choice for pike hafts-

3rd April 2016, 05:42 AM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	RE ash, No clue on Portugal, but ash was used at this time in England and Northern Europe, even for matchlock tillers/stocks. It wasn't the only wood used, as walnut, fruitwood and elm were used and walnut being the most popular. Maple /sycamore used as well. The ring type vise pin in the cock is more Spanish ,Portuguese/Mediterranean, but very practical and sometimes seen even in Scotland. Could well be a replacement sometime in its very long life. Has the barrel any proofs?

4th April 2016, 03:06 PM	#10
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Fernando, Re the sling bar; this swivel on your blunderbuss is Exactly of the type fitted to the guns carried on British mail coaches. The gun could hang down at the side, leaving the hands free, as the guard was also responsible for blowing the coach horn. The sling worked in a manner similar to a carbine sling, over the shoulder with the gun hanging down on the opposite side. I am not saying this gun Was an English coaching blunderbuss as I don't think it was, but I believe it was carried in this fashion beyond any real doubt. As an experiment, run a cord through the loop and suspend it over your shoulder and see how it hangs. :-) Best regards, Richard.