19th Century Omani Khanjar?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

This is actually very interesting. I do see why this type would often be considered a descendant or influenced by the Saidi dagger, it makers sense, both have many similarities.

Now when it comes to the term Habaabi, from where did it originate, Peter?

I do not know of any area called Habaabi, there is Alhababiya in Madina but thats way off course. There is alHabaabi tribe, but why would a type of dagger worn through out the kingdom (even by some of AlSaud) be considered specific to a certain tribe that did not produce a single artisan for this style?

Asir region and other southern Saudi areas use many styles, one of which is the one in discussion and this style has well known makers and lesser known ones. Some are actually made in Riyadh by skilled Indian workers. Some are custom made in Oman too. So its abit more broad than a single tribe.

Salaams A.alnakkas,

SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=habaabi

This library reference is self explanatory. Abha is the centre focal point fed by the important seaport Jizzan...and in the old days a stop off port to and from Zanzibar. (Muscat Sur Jizzan Zanzibar Jizzan Sur Muscat) The link to Omani Khanjars is very obvious; and an entirely logical transmission of that style to the Asir and before it itself was absorbed into Saudia...in about 1923...though it took some decades before the shroud of silence and secrecy was actually lifted on the entire region. It is my view that al Wustah ...through Sur...provided the style of dagger into the Asir copied by silversmiths and stamped locally.

Some local influence is visible including the Flower Men tribal stamp...a bunch of flowers. Usually on the reverse. The likely use in Oman of the descriptive word for daggers of this type from that area is Habaabi meaning of Abha.

On age...I have to agree on how difficult this is. What conditions was it worn in?... Was it stored for years ....?...What you are trying to do is guesstimate the age ... look at the obvious wear of being on the waist for decades ...See what back up evidence there is... belt?...and how much credence would you place on that?...belts are renewable...old belts can be put on new weapons...ha! but more to the point... every bit of the khanjar can be replaced ...so how to decide ?? Good blades will go on and on whilst it is very easy to switch a hilt...Silver goes old looking quite quickly... You cant win...but you can generalize and nothing wrong in saying the middle date...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas,

SEE http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=habaabi

This library reference is self explanatory. Abha is the centre focal point fed by the important seaport Jizzan...and in the old days a stop off port to and from Zanzibar. (Muscat Sur Jizzan Zanzibar Jizzan Sur Muscat) The link to Omani Khanjars is very obvious; and an entirely logical transmission of that style to the Asir and before it itself was absorbed into Saudia...in about 1923...though it took some decades before the shroud of silence and secrecy was actually lifted on the entire region. It is my view that al Wustah ...through Sur...provided the style of dagger into the Asir copied by silversmiths and stamped locally.

Some local influence is visible including the Flower Men tribal stamp...a bunch of flowers. Usually on the reverse. The likely use in Oman of the descriptive word for daggers of this type from that area is Habaabi meaning of Abha.

On age...I have to agree on how difficult this is. What conditions was it worn in?... Was it stored for years ....?...What you are trying to do is guesstimate the age ... look at the obvious wear of being on the waist for decades ...See what back up evidence there is... belt?...and how much credence would you place on that?...belts are renewable...old belts can be put on new weapons...ha! but more to the point... every bit of the khanjar can be replaced ...so how to decide ?? Good blades will go on and on whilst it is very easy to switch a hilt...Silver goes old looking quite quickly... You cant win...but you can generalize and nothing wrong in saying the middle date...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

While the "flower men" do wear this style now, it was never their invention. Historically they carried the dharia more than this style but since this style now is the current vogue :-)

Abha is not called Habaabi, Habaabi is a tribe that is present in that region. The flower men are not Habaabi too, and most of them live in the mountain of Habala.

If its an Omani term for this style of dagger, then that does not make it a 'habaabi' dagger.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

While the "flower men" do wear this style now, it was never their invention. Historically they carried the dharia more than this style but since this style now is the current vogue :-)

Abha is not called Habaabi, Habaabi is a tribe that is present in that region. The flower men are not Habaabi too, and most of them live in the mountain of Habala.

If its an Omani term for this style of dagger, then that does not make it a 'habaabi' dagger.

The dagger from Abha is called the "Habaabi" in Oman. Meaning` of Al Abha. Consider the historical reasoning built around the important sea port of Jazzan feeding into the entire area ...Abha being the capital.....coupled with the vital sea route link of Muscat, Sur, Jazzan and Zanzibar and reverse. Zanzibar was the capital of Oman (Stone Town) and shipping thrived during the reign of Saaid Bin Sultan between 1804 and 1856 as well as large parts of the time before and after his death. It is easy to see how the al Wustah weapon transmitted to the Asir which at the time was Yemeni...but absorbed into Saudia in 1923.

Do not confuse Ahsa with the Asir style. The transmission or copying of style in the al Hasa Oasis in Eastern Saudia may well also have come from al Wustah style....but that is more difficult to establish because the hilt is largely re designed...It may be also partly copied from the Royal Khanjar (Sayyidiyyah) or the Muscat weapon.

It may be further seen that the Royal Khanjar hilt was designed from Indian form but that another Khanjar was instrumental in its looks...that of the Muscat Khanjar.. itself remarkably similar to the al Wustah !! The last 200 plus years have allowed the Omani Khanjar situation to spread and tangle, although, for what its worth we have now got a fairly firm hand on the idiosyncrasies and mirroring of types...and neighboring country variants.

Almost all the Northern Oman workshops are capable of producing almost all of the different Khanjars of Oman...

Any scabbard technically can be joined with a Royal Khanjar Hilt.... forms mix and mingle and because dagger parts are interchangeable confusion can sometimes run rampant. The wife of one Sultan redesigned the Khanjar Hilt of her husband but only the hilt...thus, there are 4 ringer and 7 ringer (and sometimes more rings) scabbards with the royal hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Reading the argument between Lotfi and Ibrahiim teaches me something.

Here are two very smart, knowledgeable and dedicated guys, fluent in local language, living right smack in the area of interest, having access to the local sources and even living masters, spending a lot of time researching strictly local weapons , and... still disagreeing with each other:-).

What becomes obvious is that history of any weapon is significantly more complex than we imagine and no matter how authoritative is the opinion of any expert, there is significantly more mystery under the surface.

And that's the fun of it!

Thank you both!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Reading the argument between Lotfi and Ibrahiim teaches me something.

Here are two very smart, knowledgeable and dedicated guys, fluent in local language, living right smack in the area of interest, having access to the local sources and even living masters, spending a lot of time researching strictly local weapons , and... still disagreeing with each other:-).

What becomes obvious is that history of any weapon is significantly more complex than we imagine and no matter how authoritative is the opinion of any expert, there is significantly more mystery under the surface.

And that's the fun of it!

Thank you both!

Salaams Ariel, haha!! I think you have a good point ! I have to say that your specialized knowledge is astounding and also well worth reading about and it is a pleasure to take part... I had a two hour argument with 10 Bedouin women in the Sharqiyyah on which of the fingers 12 rings were worn. They all had different ideas...I won... but I was shattered at the end of it !!
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The dagger from Abha is called the "Habaabi" in Oman. Meaning` of Al Abha. Consider the historical reasoning built around the important sea port of Jazzan feeding into the entire area ...Abha being the capital.....coupled with the vital sea route link of Muscat, Sur, Jazzan and Zanzibar and reverse. Zanzibar was the capital of Oman (Stone Town) and shipping thrived during the reign of Saaid Bin Sultan between 1804 and 1856 as well as large parts of the time before and after his death. It is easy to see how the al Wustah weapon transmitted to the Asir which at the time was Yemeni...but absorbed into Saudia in 1923.

Maybe a few Omani individuals who are around the area you work in call it Habaabi? A few Omani researchers (Jamal AlKindi for one) seem to simply call it a Saudi Khanjar amongst other Omani collectors. Thats hardly an argument. I think its an issue of what the locals call it and what foreigners do. I tend to go with what the locals use :-))

Still, Omanis, or any other Arab society for that matters, do not call Abha "Habaabi" I find that very odd especially that there is no source or anything to support it.

Do not confuse Ahsa with the Asir style. The transmission or copying of style in the al Hasa Oasis in Eastern Saudia may well also have come from al Wustah style....but that is more difficult to establish because the hilt is largely re designed...It may be also partly copied from the Royal Khanjar (Sayyidiyyah) or the Muscat weapon.

All Asiri makers copy the dojani style. The style simply got modified by having a slightly more curved scabbard compared to the one posted by HarryWagner. Pictures added of one perfect example actually, previously posted in the forum. The chape inscription while faded, I am able to read it and its made by non other than Hussain AlDajani himself.

It may be further seen that the Royal Khanjar hilt was designed from Indian form but that another Khanjar was instrumental in its looks...that of the Muscat Khanjar.. itself remarkably similar to the al Wustah !! The last 200 plus years have allowed the Omani Khanjar situation to spread and tangle, although, for what its worth we have now got a fairly firm hand on the idiosyncrasies and mirroring of types...and neighboring country variants.

Almost all the Northern Oman workshops are capable of producing almost all of the different Khanjars of Oman...

Any scabbard technically can be joined with a Royal Khanjar Hilt.... forms mix and mingle and because dagger parts are interchangeable confusion can sometimes run rampant. The wife of one Sultan redesigned the Khanjar Hilt of her husband but only the hilt...thus, there are 4 ringer and 7 ringer (and sometimes more rings) scabbards with the royal hilt.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree that there is a very strong similarity to Oman. But other parts of the peninsula used similar styles as old as the Saidi. I'll forward you an article soon just doing the final touches :-))

[Jim McDougall]

Well noted Ariel, and it does seem to be sort of an inherent circumstance with the human syndrome, perception, ideas and all manner of subjective situations.
Clearly both Ibrahiim and Lofty are extremely knowledgeable in these areas, and of course there are going to be discrepancies in terminology and predominance of forms regionally etc.

It seems to me that all of this gets very confusing with the matter of terminology and other aspects, and maybe a more categorized analysis of the various types could be set down, noting characteristics, the terms they are called by, and diffusional or development notes.

I would imagine that various forms crossed into other regions and might have been duplicated, especially if craftsmen were also relocated into other areas.

A 57 Chevy in Paris is still an American car.......only if Renault had somehow produced a number of them for whatever reason, would those individual cars become 'French'.

[kronckew]

a parallel allegorical anecdote:

renault (french) sells dacia (romanian) autos and owns the company, and they use the same 1500cc dci turbo-diesel engine in the renault and dacia. oddly the same engine is also used in some other well known brand of cars from other nations...

is my dacia stepway lauriate 1.5 litre dci french or romanian? or as they are now part of europe, is it just european? it's right hand drive, meets the british regulations, not the european union ones, so is it british?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by kronckew

a parallel allegorical anecdote:

renault (french) sells dacia (romanian) autos and owns the company, and they use the same 1500cc dci turbo-diesel engine in the renault and dacia. oddly the same engine is also used in some other well known brand of cars from other nations...

is my dacia stepway lauriate 1.5 litre dci french or romanian? or as they are now part of europe, is it just european? it's right hand drive, meets the british regulations, not the european union ones, so is it british?

Exactly!!!
So I have a '50 Ford and I drop in a Chevy 350............is my car still a Ford or is it a Chevy with a Ford body?

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well noted Ariel, and it does seem to be sort of an inherent circumstance with the human syndrome, perception, ideas and all manner of subjective situations.
Clearly both Ibrahiim and Lofty are extremely knowledgeable in these areas, and of course there are going to be discrepancies in terminology and predominance of forms regionally etc.

It seems to me that all of this gets very confusing with the matter of terminology and other aspects, and maybe a more categorized analysis of the various types could be set down, noting characteristics, the terms they are called by, and diffusional or development notes.

I would imagine that various forms crossed into other regions and might have been duplicated, especially if craftsmen were also relocated into other areas.

A 57 Chevy in Paris is still an American car.......only if Renault had somehow produced a number of them for whatever reason, would those individual cars become 'French'.

It would be a French made copy of an American car. Just like this style of Khanjar made in the south is a copy of a design originating in AlHasa.

Its interesting to note that people of Asir (and other parts of the south) to a certain point in the early 20th century DID NOT wear this style. Rather, they wore a style locally called Mhaliya, Yemeni styles and dharias. It was adopted later on and became a fashion.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

It would be a French made copy of an American car. Just like this style of Khanjar made in the south is a copy of a design originating in AlHasa.

Its interesting to note that people of Asir (and other parts of the south) to a certain point in the early 20th century DID NOT wear this style. Rather, they wore a style locally called Mhaliya, Yemeni styles and dharias. It was adopted later on and became a fashion.

That's what I thought, and Im at a disadvantage here as I know next to nothing on khanjhars, though I consider them fascinating ethnographically.
So if a certain style is well known as indigenous or predominant in an area, and becomes known to be produced in another area.......would it then be called to the original term of style...but noted as a product of such and such area?

In my view, it seems too many collectors and others describing weapons are somehow afraid of qualifying or adding pertinent details in their descriptions.
For example.....a such and such style of khanjhar but produced and provenance from /location/.

It does take more effort, and in discussion the same, to properly qualify the variations and mitigating circumstances surrounding examples or forms.

We have long known for example that the so called katar dagger of India is actually known in Indian parlance as jamadhar. Yet through transcribing or other error, the term became displaced. Often, though we know the proper term as jamadhar, we parenthesize 'katar' with it.

In actuality, it is surprising just how much grey area there is within the study of arms and armor, especially ethnographic. It just takes a bit more work to properly describe and classify things.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Maybe a few Omani individuals who are around the area you work in call it Habaabi? A few Omani researchers (Jamal AlKindi for one) seem to simply call it a Saudi Khanjar amongst other Omani collectors. Thats hardly an argument. I think its an issue of what the locals call it and what foreigners do. I tend to go with what the locals use :-))

Still, Omanis, or any other Arab society for that matters, do not call Abha "Habaabi" I find that very odd especially that there is no source or anything to support it.




All Asiri makers copy the dojani style. The style simply got modified by having a slightly more curved scabbard compared to the one posted by HarryWagner. Pictures added of one perfect example actually, previously posted in the forum. The chape inscription while faded, I am able to read it and its made by non other than Hussain AlDajani himself.



I agree that there is a very strong similarity to Oman. But other parts of the peninsula used similar styles as old as the Saidi. I'll forward you an article soon just doing the final touches :-))

Salaams, There is some confusion here. Are you mixing up Asiri and al Ahsa weapons?
Are they different?...

1. I think the Ahsa come from Oman by direct camel train from Nizwa and Buraimi. It may be remembered that Wilfred Thesiger came across an Omani camel train in the 1950s laden with goods and slaves bound for the Al Ahsa Oasis. My view is that Ahsa was supplied by camel train and also by sea from Muscat...It is also possible they got ships on the coast delivering goods either directly onto the Saudia coast or via Bahrain thence to al Ahsa.

2. Regarding the Asir. Ships were on that route from Muscat and Sur to Jazzan then Zanzibar ...Stone town Zanzibar was the capital of Oman under Said the Great 1804 to 1856. It became the capital in about 1840....The Omani al Wustah Khanjar is mirrored in the Asir design.

In both cases the Omani Khanjar design is dominant in Ahsa and Asiri design. Omani people call the Asiri type "Habaabi" meaning of Abha the capital in the region. (see map) What is clear is that Asir style comes directly from the Sharqiyyah in the form of the al Wustah Khanjar...and thus the sea port of Sur is important.

In terms of the Ahsa it is by no means clear. More research needs to be done. Regarding what you think some collectors here call it...I cannot say, nor does it form part of a scientific reasoning...but broadly speaking the consensus across Oman's souks seems to indicate that Habaabi means of that region around Abha...which seems fairly logical.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, There is some confusion here. Are you mixing up Asiri and al Ahsa weapons?
Are they different?...

I do not think the confusion is from my part, as I know these weapons well enough and can read the maker's names and is able to trace the makers to their specific areas. Both make identical styles with very minor differences. Both the examples posted in this forum post are what southern Arabs call Dojani (and that Omani supposedly call habaabi..) Both items are made by identified Ahsa makers.

1. I think the Ahsa come from Oman by direct camel train from Nizwa and Buraimi. It may be remembered that Wilfred Thesiger came across an Omani camel train in the 1950s laden with goods and slaves bound for the Al Ahsa Oasis. My view is that Ahsa was supplied by camel train and also by sea from Muscat...It is also possible they got ships on the coast delivering goods either directly onto the Saudia coast or via Bahrain thence to al Ahsa.

2. Regarding the Asir. Ships were on that route from Muscat and Sur to Jazzan then Zanzibar ...Stone town Zanzibar was the capital of Oman under Said the Great 1804 to 1856. It became the capital in about 1840....The Omani al Wustah Khanjar is mirrored in the Asir design.

Except there is no proof of Omani style khanjars worn in Asir region during the 19th century. Most of their style was dominantly Yemeni since it was.. part of Yemen.

In both cases the Omani Khanjar design is dominant in Ahsa and Asiri design. Omani people call the Asiri type "Habaabi" meaning of Abha the capital in the region. (see map) What is clear is that Asir style comes directly from the Sharqiyyah in the form of the al Wustah Khanjar...and thus the sea port of Sur is important.

I would love a single reference of an Omani of credibility with regards to heritage and tradition using the term Habaabi to address Asir. A textual reference or even an interview would do, be it in Arabic or English.

In terms of the Ahsa it is by no means clear. More research needs to be done. Regarding what you think some collectors here call it...I cannot say, nor does it form part of a scientific reasoning...but broadly speaking the consensus across Oman's souks seems to indicate that Habaabi means of that region around Abha...which seems fairly logical.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Actually.. AlAhsa is one of the better researched region, compared to Ha'il and Riyadh (also produced khanjars by the way) AlAhsa is rather easy to gain information about. its a very close knit society with makers still alive. The makers also do not have the tradition of belittling craftsmen that exist in more bedouin influenced areas. Thus its easy to go there and find information or to enquire with Hasawi researchers who produced alot of regarding the craftsmanship in the area and the families there.


Anyway, this style of khanjar can be identified by an upturned scabbard, chequered style wire wrap fixed with 7 rings over cloth/leather (usually green but other colours can be found) the hilt is larger and less decorated compared to the Saidi style. The chape and locket are made out filigree silver in multiple styles too.

[blue lander]

I have a nearly identical Khanjar, except mine's missing the belt and in much worse condition

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18700

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I do not think the confusion is from my part, as I know these weapons well enough and can read the maker's names and is able to trace the makers to their specific areas. Both make identical styles with very minor differences. Both the examples posted in this forum post are what southern Arabs call Dojani (and that Omani supposedly call habaabi..) Both items are made by identified Ahsa makers.



Except there is no proof of Omani style khanjars worn in Asir region during the 19th century. Most of their style was dominantly Yemeni since it was.. part of Yemen.



I would love a single reference of an Omani of credibility with regards to heritage and tradition using the term Habaabi to address Asir. A textual reference or even an interview would do, be it in Arabic or English.



Actually.. AlAhsa is one of the better researched region, compared to Ha'il and Riyadh (also produced khanjars by the way) AlAhsa is rather easy to gain information about. its a very close knit society with makers still alive. The makers also do not have the tradition of belittling craftsmen that exist in more bedouin influenced areas. Thus its easy to go there and find information or to enquire with Hasawi researchers who produced alot of regarding the craftsmanship in the area and the families there.


Anyway, this style of khanjar can be identified by an upturned scabbard, chequered style wire wrap fixed with 7 rings over cloth/leather (usually green but other colours can be found) the hilt is larger and less decorated compared to the Saidi style. The chape and locket are made out filigree silver in multiple styles too.

Salaams ...Look at http://khanjar.om/Old.html go to al Wustah and see the almost identical weapon. Observe the very close link between Sur and Jazzan and join the dots. Being about half way to Zanzibar and an important trade point/hum Jazzan was a magnet for Oman to Zanzibar shipping. Oman pumped shiploads of Ivory herbs and slaves through this ancient port but mainly in the 19th C .
The region was in Yemen at the time...though after 1923 it was absorbed into Saudia.

See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...8&page=7&pp=30

However, if you are not convinced please feel free to possit an alternative theory... Your idea that Ahsa and the Asir have got the same weapon is interesting and I can go along with that since I can see how both regions were supplied by the same Omani source weapon;...The Asir by sea...and al Ahsa by camel train....but the origin of species is Al Wustah. From what is now the al Wustah Region...Quote" Al-Wusta lies south of Ad-Dakhliyah Region and is bordered on the east by Arabian Sea, and on the west by Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. It is the second largest Region geographically after Dhofar, but the smallest demographically, with a population of only 23 thousand''.Unquote. I mean don't believe me if you don't want to but I spent a part of my life in this region ... but please absorb the detail surrounding Said the Great where you will note how pivotal this region was in the entire Zanzibar story. By coincidence I live at the start point of the other famous camel route Buraimi to Al Hasa, thus, I offer a degree of in area experience ...30+ years worth. Slave trading is still in living memory therefor I can assure forum of the credibility of this situation. Our store is 50 metres from the old slave market !

The al Wustah weapon appears to have influenced a number of regional and international styles including the Royal Omani Khanjar (in about 1835) as well as the weapon seen in Yemen at the time...now in Saudia (Asir) ...and more than likely the eastern Saudia region of Al Ahsa...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[harrywagner]

Many thanks for the comments and the wealth of information. I had to remind myself that I own a Kaskara that also looks like late 19th but is really only mid 20th. The Kaskara and this Jambiya were not made in the same place, but both were made (and presumably used) in rugged terrain. Maybe items from this part of the world age quickly if they are worn and used daily. Thanks again! Much appreciated.

Harry