Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

[ariel]

Jens,
This passage in Flindt's article is very confusing, and I read it differently.

According to Flindt, it is the large size of the rivets that is the " Bukharan characteristics"

If so, the upper handle with 3 large rivets ( Afghani pseudo-shashka) must be Bukharan, whereas the two lower ones ( both Bukharan shashkas) with 5 small rivets are not Bukharan at all :-)

My point remains the same: can somebody show an example of a Bukharan "shashka" with 3 rivets? I have yet to see one.

[mahratt]

This passage in Flindt's article is not confusing. It just need to read carefully. Torben Flindt says that Bukhara swords (shashkas) on the handle rivets 3-5. This means that the Bukharan shahshkas on the handle can be from 3 to 5 rivets. Yes, in most cases on the hilt of Bukhara 5 rivets (thanks for your example). Sometimes there are 4 rivets (I showed it). And there Bukhara shashkas with 3 rivets on the handle.This writes Torben Flindt and Vereshchagin, who painted them in the 19th century..

I trust Torben Flindt, who studied Bukhara checkers and Vereshchagin, who painted them in the 19th century.

But surely you can have your opinion.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes you are right Ariel, Torben mentioned the big rivets, and if he did so, that is what he meant.
I knew Torben very well years ago, and he was very presice when he was writing, so when he wrote 'big rivets' he ment that.
When Torben started to collect Bukhara weapons, he went out there to study the weapons and the art, so I suppose that he would have known about the big rivets, or he would not have mentioned them.
For some reason or other we newer discussed the Bukhara weapons, but only the Indian ones.

[mahratt]

And many Bukharian checkers with 5 rivets on the handle really large rivets, as he wrote Torben Flindt.

[mahratt]

But, as we have seen, we met and small rivets.

But it does not say that Torben Flindt made a mistake in his article.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

. And there Bukhara shashkas with 3 rivets on the handle.This writes Torben Flindt and Vereshchagin, who painted them in the 19th century

Sorry, but this is a circular argument: " Vereshchagin's depiction of a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets is historically correct because Vereshchagin painted a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets"


And thank you for bringing yet more examples of Bukharan shashkas, all with 5 rivets.

Any examples of a 3-riveted one in your collection of images?

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

Sorry, but this is a circular argument: " Vereshchagin's depiction of a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets is historically correct because Vereshchagin painted a Bukharan shashka with 3 rivets"

And thank you for bringing yet more examples of Bukharan shashkas, all with 5 rivets.

I am glad to help you. I put the picture with 5 rivets, because:
1) are the most widespread Bukhara shashkas
2) on these drafts rivets - large, such as described by Torben Flindt.

There is no lasting circle. There is an example in the picture Vereshchagin, confirming the words Torben Flindt.
Torben Flindt says that on the handles of Bukhara shashkas from 3 to 5 rivets. Do you think that Torben Flindt made a mistake? I am very interested to hear your opinion on this issue.

Of course, I know that you are very good expert and collector. But in this matter trust more Torben Flindt. I'm sorry for this insolence.

Originally Posted by ariel

Any examples of a 3-riveted one in your collection of images?

Unfortunately, in my collection of Bukhara Shashkas with 3 rivets not. Like you, for 2 of my Bukhara shashkas 5 rivets on the handle (probably the most common option).
But thank you very much Artzi Yarom for his "bank" (reserve) the image^

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3912

Now I hope you are happy? Or will you continue to not believe Torben Flindt?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Now I hope you are happy? Or will you continue to not believe Torben Flindt?

This is just like the one you yourself rejected on the Russian forum because the handle is a replacement.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

This is just like the one you yourself rejected on the Russian forum because the handle is a replacement.

1) 1) You have put a photo of the Afghan shashka. What for?

2) Artzi Yarom writes nothing about replacing the handle of the shashka. You suspect that it introduces all the confusion?

"This rare shashqa style saber is coming from Central Asia or Afghanistan. Blade 29 1/2 inches, slightly up rising, hollow ground cross section inlaid with gold decoration on both faces and on the spine. Wood grips and brass bolster. Total length 35 inches. Later wood scabbard with leather cover and chased brass grip. Very Good condition. Minor wood chips on the handle and later solder repairs on the bolsters. The attribution to Central Asia and /or Afghanistan is derived from the shape of the handle, very similar to Karud / Pesh Kabz daggers from the same area. A very rare saber".

3) If you did not accept my example, here's another example:

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by ariel

This is just like the one you yourself rejected on the Russian forum because the handle is a replacement.

By the way, it seems to me that it is better to put not only one photo where you can see the details only under a microscope. If you just put here more photo, it would be clear that in Bukhara, this shashka is not relevant.

[ariel]

Re: shashka with agate handle.
Flindt specifically states the rivets on wooden and horn handles. Agate doesn't seem to relate here.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jens,
This passage in Flindt's article is very confusing, and I read it differently.

According to Flindt, it is the large size of the rivets that is the " Bukharan characteristics"

If so, the upper handle with 3 large rivets ( Afghani pseudo-shashka) must be Bukharan, whereas the two lower ones ( both Bukharan shashkas) with 5 small rivets are not Bukharan at all :-)

My point remains the same: can somebody show an example of a Bukharan "shashka" with 3 rivets? I have yet to see one.

I do not see anything "confusing" about this particular passage.

When wood or horn were used, the gripshells were held together by THREE TO FIVE large iron rivets whose size may be regarded as a Bukharan characteristic.

The question is not whether anyone has a picture of a Bukharan three rivet shashka/sword, the question is....can a Bukharan shashka have small iron rivets. Was Flindt naming the only chatacteristics or just some of several possible Bukharan styles of riveting. Can the Bukharan shashka/sword be identified by shape/style alone or are large rivets the only indicator that a shashka/sword is Bukharan.

A Very fine example of a sword from Uzbekistan of typical Bukharan style. The slightly curved 29 inches long blade is forged of very fine wootz steel of the ladder pattern. The grips of rhino horn, cut axially (Very specific to Bukharan made blade hilts) and of almost black age patina, are in the general shape of that of a Pesh-Kabz dagger, also common in the central Asian countries. The hilt bolster is silver with niello decoration and the scabbard fittings are silver covered with a dense mosaic of small Turquoise stones, also in a typical decorative style of Bukhara.