Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

ariel · 5th February 2016, 11:39 PM

David,
You are perfectly entitled to enjoying the images.
I am perfectly entitled to use the same topic to address a totally different point: art as historical evidence. One does not negate another.

You seem to find animosity ( or frank Russophobia) in my remarks. Let me assure you: there was none. Taking account of historical backgrounds is part and parcel of any discussion of historical weapons.

I do not intend to initiate a topic dedicated to pictures of Edwin Lord Weeks. I do not think it would add anything to the discussion. I prefer him artistically, but am not interested in using his pictures for any martial analysis. By the same token, no Delacroix and no Gerome.

You asked for actual examples of inconsistencies in V's pictures . I presented one. It is of interest that the picture of the "Afghani" was bolstered with a photograph of a Bukharan shashka, but it was quickly replaced with that of an Afghani pseudoshashka when the imprecision of the original image was pointed out. For details, please see my note to Jim above.

Personally, I do not think this discussion is going anywhere.

With best wishes.

mahratt · 5th February 2016, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

You asked for actual examples of inconsistencies in V's pictures . I presented one. It is of interest that the picture of the "Afghani" was bolstered with a photograph of a Bukharan shashka, but it was quickly replaced with that of an Afghani pseudoshashka when the imprecision of the original image was pointed out. For details, please see my note to Jim above.

Do not focus on the Afghan shashka. Afghan shashka was brought, as a possible example.
The main thing else. I have to repeat:

1) It is not always Bukhara weapons (knifes and shashkas) to the handle rivets 5. Often they have been - 3:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2634
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=6156
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2029

2) Interesting fact - known Bukhara shashka not only with 5 rivet and 3 rivet , but with 4 rivets on the handle.

ariel · 6th February 2016, 03:08 AM

Yes, there were Bukharan " shashkas" with 4 rivets. But they were an exception while the 5 riveted hilt was the "hallmark", as I wrote. Never 3 in a row. Vereshchagin just erred. Not a big deal.

The term " pseudo-shashka" is from Lebedinski. You can argue with him . It is used for convenience. And Bukharan are even less "shashkas", if you want to be precise:-)))

Still, the sword under the sash in the painting has nothing to do with with Afghani "pseudo-shashkas": see my note to Jim.

mahratt · 6th February 2016, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yes, there were Bukharan " shashkas" with 4 rivets. But they were an exception while the 5 riveted hilt was the "hallmark", as I wrote. Never 3 in a row. Vereshchagin just erred. Not a big deal.

Dear Ariel. We're not talking about the alleged errors Vereshchagin,that you are trying to find. We are talking about specific subjects from Bukhara

You first said that the Bukhara items were only 5 rivets, referring to article Torben Flindt. Now, do you agree that it was and 4 rivets.

Let me remind you. I have already shown here in the topic Bukhara weapon with 3 rivets

Of course, you can deny the obvious .....

ariel · 6th February 2016, 11:20 AM

Please pay attention: I am specifically mentioning Bukharan shashkas. Not P'chaks. If you have an example of a shashka with 3 rivets, please show it.

mahratt · 6th February 2016, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Please pay attention: I am specifically mentioning Bukharan shashkas. Not P'chaks. If you have an example of a shashka with 3 rivets, please show it.

I'll do better. This is a quote (citation) from Torben Flint.

One man once told me: "My friend, read books and articles attentively. Not only see the pictures. "

I think this is a good recommendation.

ariel · 6th February 2016, 03:32 PM

Flindt describes there general structure of all Bukharan handles. No argument about kards and bichaks.
I am asking specifically about "shashkas" . All his examples and all I have seen or handled have 5 ( rarely 4, if the grip is narrower than usual).
Can you show an example of a "shashka" with 3 rivets?
I am intrigued.

5th February 2016, 11:39 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, You are perfectly entitled to enjoying the images. I am perfectly entitled to use the same topic to address a totally different point: art as historical evidence. One does not negate another. You seem to find animosity ( or frank Russophobia) in my remarks. Let me assure you: there was none. Taking account of historical backgrounds is part and parcel of any discussion of historical weapons. I do not intend to initiate a topic dedicated to pictures of Edwin Lord Weeks. I do not think it would add anything to the discussion. I prefer him artistically, but am not interested in using his pictures for any martial analysis. By the same token, no Delacroix and no Gerome. You asked for actual examples of inconsistencies in V's pictures . I presented one. It is of interest that the picture of the "Afghani" was bolstered with a photograph of a Bukharan shashka, but it was quickly replaced with that of an Afghani pseudoshashka when the imprecision of the original image was pointed out. For details, please see my note to Jim above. Personally, I do not think this discussion is going anywhere. With best wishes.

6th February 2016, 03:08 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, there were Bukharan " shashkas" with 4 rivets. But they were an exception while the 5 riveted hilt was the "hallmark", as I wrote. Never 3 in a row. Vereshchagin just erred. Not a big deal. The term " pseudo-shashka" is from Lebedinski. You can argue with him . It is used for convenience. And Bukharan are even less "shashkas", if you want to be precise:-))) Still, the sword under the sash in the painting has nothing to do with with Afghani "pseudo-shashkas": see my note to Jim.

6th February 2016, 11:20 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Please pay attention: I am specifically mentioning Bukharan shashkas. Not P'chaks. If you have an example of a shashka with 3 rivets, please show it.

6th February 2016, 03:32 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Flindt describes there general structure of all Bukharan handles. No argument about kards and bichaks. I am asking specifically about "shashkas" . All his examples and all I have seen or handled have 5 ( rarely 4, if the grip is narrower than usual). Can you show an example of a "shashka" with 3 rivets? I am intrigued.