When in India "died" wootz?

[estcrh]

Here is an interesting essay, from what I have previously read and am reading now, it seems as though the real center of wootz steel production was in India. While blades may have been made in Persia/Syria it does not look like the raw materials were produced in these countries. The steel was produced in India and traded to sword making centers in other countries.

When Europeans recognized the superiority of Indian steel making technology they went about trying to creat a way to mass produce the same type of steel made in Indian so they could bypass the Indians. Many years of research into making high quality of steel by the Europeans eventually led to the modern steel making process that was directly responsible for the decline of traditional Indian steel manufacture.

Between the British desire to subvert the Indian steel makers and the now abundant supply of much cheaper European steel the Indian steel makers simply could not survive. The decline seems to be in the early mid to late 1800s.

http://www.ghadar.in/gjh_html/?q=con...eel-metallurgy

[ariel]

Kronckew:

ariel, what you are saying is happening now, the traditional skills of khukuri making in nepal are passed down by word of mouth and experience, the colour to heat a blade for hardening, the use of a tea kettle of boiling water to quench and harden the edge while leaving the spine less hard at just the right moment is not easy to document without doing it consistently time oafter time. as demand goes down, the people with the knowledge get older and the young want to move to the big city and be doctors, ghurkahs or computer techs, not low caste steel pounders.
-------------------------------------------------
Glad we agree. Your example of the same process happening right under our watch is very instructive.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an interesting essay

estcrh, thank you for an interesting essay!


But here again just what think our contemporaries....

Strange situation. Bulat ( wootz) in India disappears. However, none of the Indian researchers (and we know that the British researchers had enough) does not noted this fact. But it does not bother anyone. And we are from the standpoint of modern man argue that wootz disappeared in the middle of the 19th century. But at the same time using only circumstantial evidence

Guys do not you think that this is not scientific?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

estcrh, thank you for an interesting essay!


But here again just what think our contemporaries....

Strange situation. Bulat ( wootz) in India disappears. However, none of the Indian researchers (and we know that the British researchers had enough) does not noted this fact. But it does not bother anyone. And we are from the standpoint of modern man argue that wootz disappeared in the middle of the 19th century. But at the same time using only circumstantial evidence

Guys do not you think that this is not scientific?

The authors from the essay I posted are both Indian, or am I not understanding you?

• Marvels of Indian Iron through the Ages by R. Balasubramanian (2008)
• History of Iron Technology in India – From Beginning to Premodern Times by Vibha Tripathi (2008)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The authors from the essay I posted are both Indian, or am I not understanding you?

• Marvels of Indian Iron through the Ages by R. Balasubramanian (2008)
• History of Iron Technology in India – From Beginning to Premodern Times by Vibha Tripathi (2008)

estcrh, thanks again for article links. Maybe I was not very attentive. But I did not see in these articles to their authors appealed to the documents of the 19th century ... I always thought (although maybe I'm wrong) that the difference between the popular and the scientific article is just that in the scientific article, the author not only express their thoughts (referring to the well-known historical facts and drawing conclusions on the basis of their), but also provides links to documents of the time of which he writes (19th century in our case). If the references to historical documents (studies, books, articles) - no, the article is different from our conversations here in the forum only because it someone has published in some magazine

We all know the book by Lord Egerton. He started collecting Arms and Armor in 1855. A book was published in 1896. Maybe I did not read his book carefully ... then please correct me. Is Egerton writes in his book that the wootz in India in 19th century stopped producing?

Or is there someone else from scientists in India in the 19th century, who wrote this?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Or is there someone else from scientists in India in the 19th century, who wrote this?

I believe that the scientists in 19th century Indian were foreign, mainly British, trying to find ways to extract anything of value from Indian products etc.

[VANDOO]

OFTEN THOSE WHO FORGED STEEL WERE VERY SECRETIVE AND GUARDED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNIQUES VERY CLOSELY. ONLY A TRUSTED APPRENTICE WOULD IN TIME BE TAUGHT AND THOUGH FOREIGNERS AND OUTSIDERS OFTEN TRIED THEY FOUND THE SECRETS OFTEN COULD NOT BE BOUGHT. WHEN THE WEALTHY STOPPED BUYING FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ARMORY'S.
DEMAND AND PROFIT DIMINISHED AND GOOD APPRENTICES COULD NOT BE EASILY FOUND. SO THE MASTERS OFTEN TOOK THEIR SECRETS TO THE GRAVE WITH THEM. IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY FIELDS NOT JUST SWORD MAKING. THIS IS A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE MAN'S LIFE SPAN IS SHORT AND MANY WOULD RATHER TAKE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE GRAVE THAN TO PASS THEM ON.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OFTEN THOSE WHO FORGED STEEL WERE VERY SECRETIVE AND GUARDED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNIQUES VERY CLOSELY. ONLY A TRUSTED APPRENTICE WOULD IN TIME BE TAUGHT AND THOUGH FOREIGNERS AND OUTSIDERS OFTEN TRIED THEY FOUND THE SECRETS OFTEN COULD NOT BE BOUGHT. WHEN THE WEALTHY STOPPED BUYING FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ARMORY'S.
DEMAND AND PROFIT DIMINISHED AND GOOD APPRENTICES COULD NOT BE EASILY FOUND. SO THE MASTERS OFTEN TOOK THEIR SECRETS TO THE GRAVE WITH THEM. IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY FIELDS NOT JUST SWORD MAKING. THIS IS A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE MAN'S LIFE SPAN IS SHORT AND MANY WOULD RATHER TAKE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE GRAVE THAN TO PASS THEM ON.

VANDOO, secrets - it is always interesting and exciting. This creates a certain mystical aura. (By the way, that is what I love the movie "X-Files")

But let's look at the facts. And the facts are that even now in the 21st century, we see a large number of wootz items (swords, swords, daggers, knives and spears). If you count all wootz items in our collections,how many items we get? A few thousand? In addition, several thousand in private collections in Russia. More thousands wootz items in museums in the world. Do not you think that is too many items to talk about some secrets?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

But let's look at the facts. And the facts are that even now in the 21st century, we see a large number of wootz items (swords, swords, daggers, knives and spears). If you count all wootz items in our collections,how many items we get? A few thousand? In addition, several thousand in private collections in Russia. More thousands wootz items in museums in the world. Do not you think that is too many items to talk about some secrets?

Steel from Ancient India (Wootz Steel)
WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan
Department of Metallurgy
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Steel from Ancient India (Wootz Steel)
WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan
Department of Metallurgy
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore

Thank you, estcrh. This only confirms my words that wootz steel production was not such a great secret.

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that the scientists in 19th century Indian were foreign, mainly British, trying to find ways to extract anything of value from Indian products etc.

You're right, of course. First of all, the British in India were interested in wealth. But as the time from the middle of the 19th century, there are many studies on the ethnography of India.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Thank you, estcrh. This only confirms my words that wootz steel production was not such a great secret.

It is interesting, how could you have so many steel manufacturers making a product for so long and yet people were said to be scurrying everywere to find out how exactly it was made.....and then the method was seemingly lost?????