When in India "died" wootz?

[kronckew]

ariel, what you are saying is happening now, the traditional skills of khukuri making in nepal are passed down by word of mouth and experience, the colour to heat a blade for hardening, the use of a tea kettle of boiling water to quench and harden the edge while leaving the spine less hard at just the right moment is not easy to document without doing it consistently time oafter time. as demand goes down, the people with the knowledge get older and the young want to move to the big city and be doctors, ghurkahs or computer techs, not low caste steel pounders.

one anecdote for steel in india early 19c. by the time of the sepoy mutiny in the 1840's, a lot of surplus 1796 LC sabre blades were converted to tulwars for the indian troops of the east india company. the local sword makers just could not compete.

the troops then rebelled. the british troops who fought them with their newer pattern swords complained that the indians had better and sharper swords that were more effective. turned out that the indian troops actually put a decent edge on their old 1796 lc sabre blades, and kept them in leather/wood scabbards which did not dull the edges like the brits steel scabbards. the brits there after put wood liners in the metal scabbards or wood/leather ones.

by the time of the american civil war, it was extremely rare for two sides to get close enough to actually use swords, and when they did most were fairly inexperienced in their use and few were even sharpened, so sword cuts were rare. the brits who fought a lot of native troops armed with swords and spears, as in the mahdis troops at ombdurman did use theirs to effect, but most of the mahdis casualties were due to artillery and the new machine guns. even winston churchill used a mauser pistol when he charged with the lancers and not his sword.

the boer wars kind of put paid to the sword, boers did not play fair, shooting brits in their red or white uniforms at a thousand yards from cover.

tho it was still used occasionally during ww1, and even more limited in ww2 (except for mad jack churchill - no relation to winston - who not only captured a company of germans with just his sword, but was credited with actually using an english longbow to kill a german sergeant in battle. he walked ashore at normandy on d-day sword drawn and followed by a piper.

the US navy eliminated swords for officers at one point in ww2 to save metal to build battleships. the officers ignored the order & got them reinstated. even the humble cutlass is again in ceremonial use now in the USN for enlisted.sadly they tend to use stainless steel blades which are brittle but look good.

the filipino marines still use a sword for jungle combat against the rebels where, on jungle trails and thick brush, suddenly may bring two sides together in surprise, and where even a carbine may be too long to swing around in the vegetation. they use a ginunting in close quarters to good effect, as do the ghurkahs with their khuks.

seems the sword will never completely die out. and there is still a place for wootz, if we can figure it'as secrets.

[estcrh]

Here is an interesting essay, from what I have previously read and am reading now, it seems as though the real center of wootz steel production was in India. While blades may have been made in Persia/Syria it does not look like the raw materials were produced in these countries. The steel was produced in India and traded to sword making centers in other countries.

When Europeans recognized the superiority of Indian steel making technology they went about trying to creat a way to mass produce the same type of steel made in Indian so they could bypass the Indians. Many years of research into making high quality of steel by the Europeans eventually led to the modern steel making process that was directly responsible for the decline of traditional Indian steel manufacture.

Between the British desire to subvert the Indian steel makers and the now abundant supply of much cheaper European steel the Indian steel makers simply could not survive. The decline seems to be in the early mid to late 1800s.

http://www.ghadar.in/gjh_html/?q=con...eel-metallurgy

[ariel]

Kronckew:

ariel, what you are saying is happening now, the traditional skills of khukuri making in nepal are passed down by word of mouth and experience, the colour to heat a blade for hardening, the use of a tea kettle of boiling water to quench and harden the edge while leaving the spine less hard at just the right moment is not easy to document without doing it consistently time oafter time. as demand goes down, the people with the knowledge get older and the young want to move to the big city and be doctors, ghurkahs or computer techs, not low caste steel pounders.
-------------------------------------------------
Glad we agree. Your example of the same process happening right under our watch is very instructive.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Here is an interesting essay

estcrh, thank you for an interesting essay!


But here again just what think our contemporaries....

Strange situation. Bulat ( wootz) in India disappears. However, none of the Indian researchers (and we know that the British researchers had enough) does not noted this fact. But it does not bother anyone. And we are from the standpoint of modern man argue that wootz disappeared in the middle of the 19th century. But at the same time using only circumstantial evidence

Guys do not you think that this is not scientific?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

estcrh, thank you for an interesting essay!


But here again just what think our contemporaries....

Strange situation. Bulat ( wootz) in India disappears. However, none of the Indian researchers (and we know that the British researchers had enough) does not noted this fact. But it does not bother anyone. And we are from the standpoint of modern man argue that wootz disappeared in the middle of the 19th century. But at the same time using only circumstantial evidence

Guys do not you think that this is not scientific?

The authors from the essay I posted are both Indian, or am I not understanding you?

• Marvels of Indian Iron through the Ages by R. Balasubramanian (2008)
• History of Iron Technology in India – From Beginning to Premodern Times by Vibha Tripathi (2008)

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

The authors from the essay I posted are both Indian, or am I not understanding you?

• Marvels of Indian Iron through the Ages by R. Balasubramanian (2008)
• History of Iron Technology in India – From Beginning to Premodern Times by Vibha Tripathi (2008)

estcrh, thanks again for article links. Maybe I was not very attentive. But I did not see in these articles to their authors appealed to the documents of the 19th century ... I always thought (although maybe I'm wrong) that the difference between the popular and the scientific article is just that in the scientific article, the author not only express their thoughts (referring to the well-known historical facts and drawing conclusions on the basis of their), but also provides links to documents of the time of which he writes (19th century in our case). If the references to historical documents (studies, books, articles) - no, the article is different from our conversations here in the forum only because it someone has published in some magazine

We all know the book by Lord Egerton. He started collecting Arms and Armor in 1855. A book was published in 1896. Maybe I did not read his book carefully ... then please correct me. Is Egerton writes in his book that the wootz in India in 19th century stopped producing?

Or is there someone else from scientists in India in the 19th century, who wrote this?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Or is there someone else from scientists in India in the 19th century, who wrote this?

I believe that the scientists in 19th century Indian were foreign, mainly British, trying to find ways to extract anything of value from Indian products etc.

[VANDOO]

OFTEN THOSE WHO FORGED STEEL WERE VERY SECRETIVE AND GUARDED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNIQUES VERY CLOSELY. ONLY A TRUSTED APPRENTICE WOULD IN TIME BE TAUGHT AND THOUGH FOREIGNERS AND OUTSIDERS OFTEN TRIED THEY FOUND THE SECRETS OFTEN COULD NOT BE BOUGHT. WHEN THE WEALTHY STOPPED BUYING FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ARMORY'S.
DEMAND AND PROFIT DIMINISHED AND GOOD APPRENTICES COULD NOT BE EASILY FOUND. SO THE MASTERS OFTEN TOOK THEIR SECRETS TO THE GRAVE WITH THEM. IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY FIELDS NOT JUST SWORD MAKING. THIS IS A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE MAN'S LIFE SPAN IS SHORT AND MANY WOULD RATHER TAKE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE GRAVE THAN TO PASS THEM ON.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

OFTEN THOSE WHO FORGED STEEL WERE VERY SECRETIVE AND GUARDED THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND TECHNIQUES VERY CLOSELY. ONLY A TRUSTED APPRENTICE WOULD IN TIME BE TAUGHT AND THOUGH FOREIGNERS AND OUTSIDERS OFTEN TRIED THEY FOUND THE SECRETS OFTEN COULD NOT BE BOUGHT. WHEN THE WEALTHY STOPPED BUYING FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR ARMORY'S.
DEMAND AND PROFIT DIMINISHED AND GOOD APPRENTICES COULD NOT BE EASILY FOUND. SO THE MASTERS OFTEN TOOK THEIR SECRETS TO THE GRAVE WITH THEM. IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY FIELDS NOT JUST SWORD MAKING. THIS IS A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION BECAUSE MAN'S LIFE SPAN IS SHORT AND MANY WOULD RATHER TAKE THEIR SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE TO THE GRAVE THAN TO PASS THEM ON.

VANDOO, secrets - it is always interesting and exciting. This creates a certain mystical aura. (By the way, that is what I love the movie "X-Files")

But let's look at the facts. And the facts are that even now in the 21st century, we see a large number of wootz items (swords, swords, daggers, knives and spears). If you count all wootz items in our collections,how many items we get? A few thousand? In addition, several thousand in private collections in Russia. More thousands wootz items in museums in the world. Do not you think that is too many items to talk about some secrets?

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mahratt

But let's look at the facts. And the facts are that even now in the 21st century, we see a large number of wootz items (swords, swords, daggers, knives and spears). If you count all wootz items in our collections,how many items we get? A few thousand? In addition, several thousand in private collections in Russia. More thousands wootz items in museums in the world. Do not you think that is too many items to talk about some secrets?

Steel from Ancient India (Wootz Steel)
WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan
Department of Metallurgy
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Steel from Ancient India (Wootz Steel)
WOOTZ STEEL: AN ADVANCED MATERIAL OF THE ANCIENT WORLD
S. Srinivasan and S. Ranganathan
Department of Metallurgy
Indian Institute of Science
Bangalore

Thank you, estcrh. This only confirms my words that wootz steel production was not such a great secret.

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that the scientists in 19th century Indian were foreign, mainly British, trying to find ways to extract anything of value from Indian products etc.

You're right, of course. First of all, the British in India were interested in wealth. But as the time from the middle of the 19th century, there are many studies on the ethnography of India.