Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

estcrh · 3rd February 2016, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Perhaps. But he could witness events of 1872 no better than those of 1858: he wasn't there for either:-)

I believe that Vereshchagin responded to this by stating that British tactics (tying captives to cannon and executing them in this vicious manner) would have happened whether he actually saw it or not. In other words he was just using this particular painting as an way to bring attention to what he saw as the brutality of British justice in India, he did the same with his painting depicting the execution of members of the Nihilist movement in St Petersburg, political commentary is not always about realism, it is about making people think.

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2016, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that Vereshchagin responded to this by stating that British tactics (tying captives to cannon and executing them in this vicious manner) would have happened whether he actually saw it or not. In other words he was just using this particular painting as an way to bring attention to what he saw as the brutality of British justice in India, he did the same with his painting depicting the execution of members of the Nihilist movement in St Petersburg, political commentary is not always about realism, it is about making people think.

Well said Estcrh!! and a LOT less words than it took me

ariel · 3rd February 2016, 08:16 PM

David and I seem to have difference of opinion: he calls my comments nitpicking , whereas I view them as an attempt to define strict parameters of proof. Epistemology is one of the main logical and philosophical branches.

I cannot agree with Estcrh on the appropriateness of Vereshchaging's counter argument: the fact that something could have happened doesn't mean that it did happen.

Jim's story is very instructive: an old image prompted long and careful examination of facts before its veracity was established. Artistic images by themselves carry an aura of factual uncertainty, especially if they are motivated by political considerations.

And, BTW, I just found out ( thank you, Wikipedia!) that the brutal Brits, blowing up people from the cannons, actually learned this practice from the ........Moghuls:-) Apparently, physical annihilation of the body prevented reincarnation.

David · 3rd February 2016, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

David and I seem to have difference of opinion: he calls my comments nitpicking , whereas I view them as an attempt to define strict parameters of proof. Epistemology is one of the main logical and philosophical branches.

Well Ariel, i guess will need to establish what, exactly, we are attempting to "prove" here. Let's put this question into context. As far as i can tell Mahratt did not present any point or question to "prove" in this thread, merely it is a presentation of Vereshchagin's paintings for our viewing. After a short note the content of the works shared turned to depictions of weaponry during war time. This is the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum. While we do, from time to time discuss weapons in the context of historical events (it's unavoidable really) our main concern of discussion here is are the weapons themselves, not necessarily the accuracy of the hows and whys of the battles they were used in or the politics of war that surround them. This is not a forum about military strategies per se. And after all, we all know that histories are written by the victors and the actual truth about any particular battle or war is often open to debate. We are here to discuss the weapons themselves, not who was right or wrong in using them or whether the Brits thought up the brutal execution by cannon themselves or got the idea from the Moghuls. We can bruise an awful lot of nationalistic egos here if we focus our arguments on who was right or wrong or most brutal or whose nation was disgraced in which battle or which country had notoriously bad generals. Let's discuss the cannon itself...or the sword or dagger or knife, etc., not the politics of its uses.
So i ask again, what inaccuracies do you find do you find in Vereshchagin's depiction of the weapons and armor in these paintings? What do you think needs to be "proved" here or what misinformation about these weapons do you believe Vereshchagin's work put forth? I certainly don't see any of his figures inaccurately using a keris or some other culturally incorrect weapon in these paintings, do you?

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2016, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Ariel, i guess will need to establish what, exactly, we are attempting to "prove" here. Let's put this question into context. As far as i can tell Mahratt did not present any point or question to "prove" in this thread, merely it is a presentation of Vereshchagin's paintings for our viewing. After a short note the content of the works shared turned to depictions of weaponry during war time. This is the Ethnographic Arms & Armour Forum. While we do, from time to time discuss weapons in the context of historical events (it's unavoidable really) our main concern of discussion here is are the weapons themselves, not necessarily the accuracy of the hows and whys of the battles they were used in or the politics of war that surround them. This is not a forum about military strategies per se. And after all, we all know that histories are written by the victors and the actual truth about any particular battle or war is often open to debate. We are here to discuss the weapons themselves, not who was right or wrong in using them or whether the Brits thought up the brutal execution by cannon themselves or got the idea from the Moghuls. We can bruise an awful lot of nationalistic egos here if we focus our arguments on who was right or wrong or most brutal or whose nation was disgraced in which battle or which country had notoriously bad generals. Let's discuss the cannon itself...or the sword or dagger or knife, etc., not the politics of its uses.
So i ask again, what inaccuracies do you find do you find in Vereshchagin's depiction of the weapons and armor in these paintings? What do you think needs to be "proved" here or what misinformation about these weapons do you believe Vereshchagin's work put forth? I certainly don't see any of his figures inaccurately using a keris or some other culturally incorrect weapon in these paintings, do you?

Well said David!!! The art needs to be either appreciated for its aesthetic depictions as intended or analyzed as to the components included in its content, but that is left to the person who is observing it. The opinions expressed should be just that, and held as such.

mahratt · 3rd February 2016, 08:52 PM

Hints on political considerations seem strange, given that Vereshchagin showed the same and cruelty of the Russian justice system:

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I believe that Vereshchagin responded to this by stating that British tactics (tying captives to cannon and executing them in this vicious manner) would have happened whether he actually saw it or not. In other words he was just using this particular painting as an way to bring attention to what he saw as the brutality of British justice in India, he did the same with his painting depicting the execution of members of the Nihilist movement in St Petersburg, political commentary is not always about realism, it is about making people think.

Wikipedia seems to me, is not the most serious source. Maybe you can find a reliable source? It is interesting to know the facts proving that Blowing from guns (Devil wind) the British took over from Moghuls .

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2016, 09:13 PM

I really don't think any of us here as reasonable historians are quite that far apart in our views that art and for that matter most sources of data and record of historical events may not always be entirely accurate. While it seems clear that the main issue is trying to establish the motivations and perspective which might lead to any inaccuracy or deliberate nuance or 'spin' on the source, obviously these are opinions, and should be accepted as such.

I try to make it clear when I am presenting material that my comments are my opinion or view, not necessarily a matter of irreproachable fact. The only time I can assert otherwise is if I actually witnessed the event.

Ironically, as most law enforcement and investigative authorities will tell you, even eye witnesses are often not entirely accurate, thus they rely on cross investigation to compare details.

Ariel, thank you for your comment on my story, which indeed I meant in that very way, to be instructive.

A note regarding Wikipedia, which I confess to using a great deal. It is what I refer to as a 'benchmark' source, presenting material on a topic and hopefully with cited sources. From here the research BEGINS as these are checked and cross checked with others as networking through the materials moves forward.
Actually, art and Wikipedia in this sense have this in common!

Actually the Wikipedia entry concerning the ghastly practice of execution by tying to cannon muzzle and firing seems well covered, and the pages of cited references and extensive bibliography have well set the path for any residual research. It does seem the practice certainly was not British alone just as most cases of these kinds of grim circumstance are not restricted to any particular nationality or other denomination.

3rd February 2016, 08:16 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David and I seem to have difference of opinion: he calls my comments nitpicking , whereas I view them as an attempt to define strict parameters of proof. Epistemology is one of the main logical and philosophical branches. I cannot agree with Estcrh on the appropriateness of Vereshchaging's counter argument: the fact that something could have happened doesn't mean that it did happen. Jim's story is very instructive: an old image prompted long and careful examination of facts before its veracity was established. Artistic images by themselves carry an aura of factual uncertainty, especially if they are motivated by political considerations. And, BTW, I just found out ( thank you, Wikipedia!) that the brutal Brits, blowing up people from the cannons, actually learned this practice from the ........Moghuls:-) Apparently, physical annihilation of the body prevented reincarnation.

3rd February 2016, 09:13 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I really don't think any of us here as reasonable historians are quite that far apart in our views that art and for that matter most sources of data and record of historical events may not always be entirely accurate. While it seems clear that the main issue is trying to establish the motivations and perspective which might lead to any inaccuracy or deliberate nuance or 'spin' on the source, obviously these are opinions, and should be accepted as such. I try to make it clear when I am presenting material that my comments are my opinion or view, not necessarily a matter of irreproachable fact. The only time I can assert otherwise is if I actually witnessed the event. Ironically, as most law enforcement and investigative authorities will tell you, even eye witnesses are often not entirely accurate, thus they rely on cross investigation to compare details. Ariel, thank you for your comment on my story, which indeed I meant in that very way, to be instructive. A note regarding Wikipedia, which I confess to using a great deal. It is what I refer to as a 'benchmark' source, presenting material on a topic and hopefully with cited sources. From here the research BEGINS as these are checked and cross checked with others as networking through the materials moves forward. Actually, art and Wikipedia in this sense have this in common! Actually the Wikipedia entry concerning the ghastly practice of execution by tying to cannon muzzle and firing seems well covered, and the pages of cited references and extensive bibliography have well set the path for any residual research. It does seem the practice certainly was not British alone just as most cases of these kinds of grim circumstance are not restricted to any particular nationality or other denomination.