Vasily Vereshchagin "Indian poem"

Jim McDougall · 3rd February 2016, 04:51 PM

As I noted, this discussion, which has been primarily the topic of the Russian artist Vereshchagin's work, has been most interesting.
Actually I agree heartily with Mahratt as well as David, that essentially works of art (and typically that often includes photographs) must be gauged carefully in their veracity as historical evidence.

It is well known that art itself, is intended to elicit temporal and emotional reaction from the viewer, which is why artists often employed varying degree of license in their portrayals of historical events and situations.
In the many references I have read through on the subject of 'historical detection', the best by far is "After the Fact: The Art of Historical Detection". James Davidson and Mark Lytle, N.Y. 1982, and is remarkable.

In reviewing this book as I write this, I wanted to select a notable comment which addresses our subject of the use of art in studying history, but it is overwhelming as each page is full of compelling perspective on this.

While the methods of 'detection' apply outside art itself to narratives, records, and all manner of historic detail, the references to artists themselves are most telling.

I once did extensive research involving the identification of a Spanish 'cuera', the leather armor of the Spanish colonial soldiers in the frontiers of New Spain. In trying to locate an example of one of these, only two were found....however an unusual example which looked more like an early Roman armor was found in Arizona.
This was remarkable in that not only did two other cuera still exist, this one was of entirely different form than previously known.

The true identification of this curious anomaly in Spanish leather was found in paintings on hide, which incredibly had been discovered in Switzerland though painted in New Mexico in the 1720s. These had been sent there by a Jesuit priest to his family in about 1758. Through many efforts by local historians in New Mexico, these were finally returned there in the 1980s.

In this painting, which was painted by local Pueblos of a tragic battle in Nebraska involving the massacre of a Spanish contingent from Santa Fe, many of the allied Indian warriors accompanying the Spaniards were wearing this type leather armor. It was the only known depiction of such a form, and had been unknown and in Europe since 1758. Therefore, the only references on Spanish colonial weapons and armor did not include this type.
Further, this piece acquired in the late 19th century was only ever shown in a remote private museum in Arizona, whose owner died and the holdings were kept in storage until finally dispersed in an estate sale a number of years ago.
It was captioned, 'old conquistador leather armor' only and in deplorable condition, with little other note.

We used these paintings (known as the Segesser hides), along with considerable research into contemporary narratives and accounts, as well as examining the known corpus of material on Spanish colonial material culture to collect facts. We also confirmed the existence of the only other two cuera (one in the Smithsonian dated c.1820 and one in the Armeria Real dated c1770, both in storage).....and considered their forms as we examined the details of our example.

We were finally able to determine that our cuera was from the 1690s period and produced by Indian artisans with Spanish advisors using the cuir boulli method (contrary to rawhide in the other examples) and apparently used by these Pueblo Indians loyal to the Spaniards in those times and it would appear primarily in the Santa Fe regions.

In this way, with considerable corroboration, we were able to indeed use a work of art, contemporary to the events depicted, by Indian painters being directed by survivors and fashions and forms in use contemporarily there, to identify this rare item of leather armor, the only one of its kind.

This anecdotal case (I apologize for the length) is to emphasize that of course artwork is valuable in historical study, but any reasonable historian will advance with caution and engage in considerable supportive study in applying its place in any study.

Aside from those caveats, I thing it is quite possible to enjoy art for what it is, and greatly respect each artist for their talents and skills. In so many cases, the nuances and symbolism within these works can become history themselves!!! (look at "The DaVinci Code"

!!).

estcrh · 4th February 2016, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We used these paintings (known as the Segesser hides), along with considerable research into contemporary narratives and accounts, as well as examining the known corpus of material on Spanish colonial material culture to collect facts.

Jim, thanks for this info, I was aware of the scale armor mentioned but not these paintings, here are two links, one with more info and one with zoomable images of the Segesser hides.

http://media.museumofnewmexico.org/e...ail&eventID=37
http://www.nmhistorymuseum.org/hides/

mahratt · 4th February 2016, 06:33 AM

Several paintings by Vereshchagin devoted to the Russian-Turkish war 1877-1878.

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2016, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Jim, thanks for this info, I was aware of the scale armor mentioned but not these paintings, here are two links, one with more info and one with zoomable images of the Segesser hides.

http://media.museumofnewmexico.org/e...ail&eventID=37
http://www.nmhistorymuseum.org/hides/

You bet Estcrh! and of course this detail is quite familiar. After viewing and consulting on the cuera in Arizona I travelled to Santa Fe where I viewed these fantastic paintings. I was with one of the men who was instrumental in bringing these hides back to Santa Fe, and who gave me key understanding of the detail in these paintings. I was also in touch with Peter Bleed, Professor of Anthropology in Nebraska who had been at the sites of this battle there. The scale mantle was a different item found near El Paso if I recall, but was part of the research scope and I believe handled by Donald Larocca of the Met in New York.
It was a fantastic project!

mahratt · 4th February 2016, 09:01 PM

Afghan

Jim McDougall · 4th February 2016, 09:46 PM

Absolutely amazing art!! and beautiful pieces, especially that Bukharen sabre (always recognized by the 5 rivet pattern in the grip among other features).
Thank you again for sharing all of these Mahratt. I wish I had walls so I could have copies of many of these up. The adventure sensation they convey must have been much like what those intrepid travelers must have felt as they trekked through these Central Asian regions.

ariel · 4th February 2016, 10:24 PM

David,
Over here we are dealing with historical ethnographic arms. In my opinion it it impossible to study Oriental arms without delving into history, religion, metaphysics, military clashes, etc, etc of that ancient, multicultural and turbulent area. This is the backbone of any serious study of Eastern weapons , with Elgood exemplifying this approach to the highest degree. Not for nothing his ( IMHO) masterpiece is titled "Hindu arms and ritual".

As a matter of fact this is exactly what you yourself mention repeatedly when Indonesian kris is discussed.

I was not trying to denigrate Vereshchagin's at all: in my opinion , he was just another good Orientalist painter.His uniqueness was in the military direction of his artistic efforts ( although Ingres odalisques may be preferred by others :-)))

I was not looking for any factual inconsistencies in his works, but there must be some. Straight from the top of my head, look at the set of pics just above my response, where the supposed Afghani man carries a typical Bukharan shashka the handle of which has only 3 rivets placed in a line. The hallmark of Bukharan Shashkas is 5 rivets, placed in a 2-1-2 arrangement ( see pic in the same post).

So, what kind of profound conclusions about Central Asian weapons should we reach from that painting ? Perhaps that Vereshchagin's sketch must have missed the detail and he might not have had a real Bukharan shashka in his studio.
Also, the above-quoted Indian article about Vereshchagin mentioned wrong British uniforms.

I am sure that careful review of his paintings by real " Where is Elmo?" aficionados might disclose more factual errors. So what? He was just an artist, for crying out loud ! Artists are not, and should not, be held to strict scientific standards. But by the same token, their images cannot be used as evidences without proper verification.

In contrast, Elgood shows temple carving of warriors with D-guarded swords: 11-12th century! This might overthrow the entire idea of European impact on Hindu weapons! However, Elgood, being a scientist, downplayed the significance of art and suggested waiting for an actual example.

And this is the difference between art and science.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2016, 02:24 AM

Ariel,
Extremely well thought out and presented response to Davids comments!
I must admit that as a somewhat (perhaps a lot) romantic historian, I am inclined to overlook a lot of probably otherwise significant details in many works of art. Very unscientific I know, but I enjoy the sense the work sends me in appreciating the period or events.

If I am considering the detail of the work in a study or investigation then of course my research broadens to seeking corroborating evidence in other sources.

I don't think anyone who is in an art gallery usually has exactly the same perception or opinions on a work, but art is of course subjectively oriented.

If I am watching a movie, especially something of historical content, of course I will note there will be certain flaws in detail......but I will not sacrifice the enjoyment of the film for these. Most critics delight in finding these detail errors and herald their superior knowledge by making loud and pronounced denigration of such things, but 'in my opinion' this is very belittling to themselves. For some reason I always seem to enjoy the most, the movies that critics hate and tear to pieces!!!

Despite all the discussion , I know I really like the illustrations being posted here.......the philosophy uh......interesting.

mahratt · 5th February 2016, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I was not looking for any factual inconsistencies in his works, but there must be some. Straight from the top of my head, look at the set of pics just above my response, where the supposed Afghani man carries a typical Bukharan shashka the handle of which has only 3 rivets placed in a line. The hallmark of Bukharan Shashkas is 5 rivets, placed in a 2-1-2 arrangement ( see pic in the same post).

I really like the researchers who like to nitpick. With them interesting debate.

I put in the topic image Bukhara shashka. And Ariel is definitely right remembering article Torben Flindt. But the world is not limited to one article, and may surprise you

1) It is not always Bukhara weapons (knifes and shashkas) to the handle rivets 5. Often they have been - 3:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2634
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=6156
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2029

2) All certainly know that except Bukhara shashka there are Afghan shashka ( 3 rivets to the handle). It is likely that in the picture is just such a an Afghan shashka.

David · 5th February 2016, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I am sure that careful review of his paintings by real " Where is Elmo?" aficionados might disclose more factual errors. So what? He was just an artist, for crying out loud ! Artists are not, and should not, be held to strict scientific standards. But by the same token, their images cannot be used as evidences without proper verification.

In contrast, Elgood shows temple carving of warriors with D-guarded swords: 11-12th century! This might overthrow the entire idea of European impact on Hindu weapons! However, Elgood, being a scientist, downplayed the significance of art and suggested waiting for an actual example.

And this is the difference between art and science.

Ariel, again you are missing my point. Again, these images were brought to our attention for an over all appreciation of this artist's work, i suppose due to their extraordinary attention to detail and accuracy. Please forgive all caps, but i guess i feel i need to drive this point home. NO ONE HAS PRESENTED THESE IMAGES AS EVIDENCE OR PROOF OF ANYTHING. Yet you first response to this thread by going off on a tangent on the incompetency of the Russian navy, something which had nothing to do with the material at hand. I can only interpret this as an attempt to get a rise out of Mahratt. From there you seem to do nothing but question the accuracy of Vereshchagin's work despite Mahratt's consistent pairing of actual photographs and the artists work for comparison of weaponry. Of course their is still no thesis being put forth that requires "proving" here. None of the painting have been presented to that end, only for our appreciation. But instead of appreciating the work, you commentary becomes "And if we are talking about India and Vereshchagin, we should not forget Edwin Lord Weeks, a superb American Orientalist painter who was his equal or better ( pure IMHO)."
Perhaps you should start your own similar thread on Weeks then if you find him to be the superior artist. Then we can all argue that Weeks isn't "historical fact" either. If someone were putting that thesis forth perhaps your continued ranting on this point would have some validity. However, once again, no one has presented ANY painting here as evidence in the court of war history.
These paintings do not need to be exact reproductions of historical fact or events to be valuable to us as weapons collectors or amateur historians. How about we try not arguing for argument sake. It adds nothing valuable to the conversation.

Jim McDougall · 5th February 2016, 01:43 PM

Mahratt offers one of the most reasonable comments noting that writers or persons nitpicking in observations on art present great debate. It offers opportunity for those participating to either change or reinforce opinions and offers perspective for others who have not yet decided.

It is not necessary to add political or personal derisions nor negative notes, one should focus on positive support for their position. This is the strong approach, negative or sarcastic notes otherwise only make the person making them appear weak. We see this too much in political campaigns!

Regarding the accuracy of five rivets or three for example in Bukharen sabres, obviously there are never such hard and fast rules, and in recalling communications with Mr Flindt many years ago, I'm sure he would agree.
The preponderance of five, does not negate the possibility of three.
A fine point, but supports the need for additional research and corroboration with art in question.

4th February 2016, 06:33 AM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Several paintings by Vereshchagin devoted to the Russian-Turkish war 1877-1878. Attached Images

4th February 2016, 09:01 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Afghan Attached Images

4th February 2016, 10:24 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, Over here we are dealing with historical ethnographic arms. In my opinion it it impossible to study Oriental arms without delving into history, religion, metaphysics, military clashes, etc, etc of that ancient, multicultural and turbulent area. This is the backbone of any serious study of Eastern weapons , with Elgood exemplifying this approach to the highest degree. Not for nothing his ( IMHO) masterpiece is titled "Hindu arms and ritual". As a matter of fact this is exactly what you yourself mention repeatedly when Indonesian kris is discussed. I was not trying to denigrate Vereshchagin's at all: in my opinion , he was just another good Orientalist painter.His uniqueness was in the military direction of his artistic efforts ( although Ingres odalisques may be preferred by others :-))) I was not looking for any factual inconsistencies in his works, but there must be some. Straight from the top of my head, look at the set of pics just above my response, where the supposed Afghani man carries a typical Bukharan shashka the handle of which has only 3 rivets placed in a line. The hallmark of Bukharan Shashkas is 5 rivets, placed in a 2-1-2 arrangement ( see pic in the same post). So, what kind of profound conclusions about Central Asian weapons should we reach from that painting ? Perhaps that Vereshchagin's sketch must have missed the detail and he might not have had a real Bukharan shashka in his studio. Also, the above-quoted Indian article about Vereshchagin mentioned wrong British uniforms. I am sure that careful review of his paintings by real " Where is Elmo?" aficionados might disclose more factual errors. So what? He was just an artist, for crying out loud ! Artists are not, and should not, be held to strict scientific standards. But by the same token, their images cannot be used as evidences without proper verification. In contrast, Elgood shows temple carving of warriors with D-guarded swords: 11-12th century! This might overthrow the entire idea of European impact on Hindu weapons! However, Elgood, being a scientist, downplayed the significance of art and suggested waiting for an actual example. And this is the difference between art and science. Last edited by ariel; 5th February 2016 at 01:04 AM.

3rd February 2016, 04:51 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	As I noted, this discussion, which has been primarily the topic of the Russian artist Vereshchagin's work, has been most interesting. Actually I agree heartily with Mahratt as well as David, that essentially works of art (and typically that often includes photographs) must be gauged carefully in their veracity as historical evidence. It is well known that art itself, is intended to elicit temporal and emotional reaction from the viewer, which is why artists often employed varying degree of license in their portrayals of historical events and situations. In the many references I have read through on the subject of 'historical detection', the best by far is "After the Fact: The Art of Historical Detection". James Davidson and Mark Lytle, N.Y. 1982, and is remarkable. In reviewing this book as I write this, I wanted to select a notable comment which addresses our subject of the use of art in studying history, but it is overwhelming as each page is full of compelling perspective on this. While the methods of 'detection' apply outside art itself to narratives, records, and all manner of historic detail, the references to artists themselves are most telling. I once did extensive research involving the identification of a Spanish 'cuera', the leather armor of the Spanish colonial soldiers in the frontiers of New Spain. In trying to locate an example of one of these, only two were found....however an unusual example which looked more like an early Roman armor was found in Arizona. This was remarkable in that not only did two other cuera still exist, this one was of entirely different form than previously known. The true identification of this curious anomaly in Spanish leather was found in paintings on hide, which incredibly had been discovered in Switzerland though painted in New Mexico in the 1720s. These had been sent there by a Jesuit priest to his family in about 1758. Through many efforts by local historians in New Mexico, these were finally returned there in the 1980s. In this painting, which was painted by local Pueblos of a tragic battle in Nebraska involving the massacre of a Spanish contingent from Santa Fe, many of the allied Indian warriors accompanying the Spaniards were wearing this type leather armor. It was the only known depiction of such a form, and had been unknown and in Europe since 1758. Therefore, the only references on Spanish colonial weapons and armor did not include this type. Further, this piece acquired in the late 19th century was only ever shown in a remote private museum in Arizona, whose owner died and the holdings were kept in storage until finally dispersed in an estate sale a number of years ago. It was captioned, 'old conquistador leather armor' only and in deplorable condition, with little other note. We used these paintings (known as the Segesser hides), along with considerable research into contemporary narratives and accounts, as well as examining the known corpus of material on Spanish colonial material culture to collect facts. We also confirmed the existence of the only other two cuera (one in the Smithsonian dated c.1820 and one in the Armeria Real dated c1770, both in storage).....and considered their forms as we examined the details of our example. We were finally able to determine that our cuera was from the 1690s period and produced by Indian artisans with Spanish advisors using the cuir boulli method (contrary to rawhide in the other examples) and apparently used by these Pueblo Indians loyal to the Spaniards in those times and it would appear primarily in the Santa Fe regions. In this way, with considerable corroboration, we were able to indeed use a work of art, contemporary to the events depicted, by Indian painters being directed by survivors and fashions and forms in use contemporarily there, to identify this rare item of leather armor, the only one of its kind. This anecdotal case (I apologize for the length) is to emphasize that of course artwork is valuable in historical study, but any reasonable historian will advance with caution and engage in considerable supportive study in applying its place in any study. Aside from those caveats, I thing it is quite possible to enjoy art for what it is, and greatly respect each artist for their talents and skills. In so many cases, the nuances and symbolism within these works can become history themselves!!! (look at "The DaVinci Code" !!).

4th February 2016, 09:46 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Absolutely amazing art!! and beautiful pieces, especially that Bukharen sabre (always recognized by the 5 rivet pattern in the grip among other features). Thank you again for sharing all of these Mahratt. I wish I had walls so I could have copies of many of these up. The adventure sensation they convey must have been much like what those intrepid travelers must have felt as they trekked through these Central Asian regions.

5th February 2016, 02:24 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Ariel, Extremely well thought out and presented response to Davids comments! I must admit that as a somewhat (perhaps a lot) romantic historian, I am inclined to overlook a lot of probably otherwise significant details in many works of art. Very unscientific I know, but I enjoy the sense the work sends me in appreciating the period or events. If I am considering the detail of the work in a study or investigation then of course my research broadens to seeking corroborating evidence in other sources. I don't think anyone who is in an art gallery usually has exactly the same perception or opinions on a work, but art is of course subjectively oriented. If I am watching a movie, especially something of historical content, of course I will note there will be certain flaws in detail......but I will not sacrifice the enjoyment of the film for these. Most critics delight in finding these detail errors and herald their superior knowledge by making loud and pronounced denigration of such things, but 'in my opinion' this is very belittling to themselves. For some reason I always seem to enjoy the most, the movies that critics hate and tear to pieces!!! Despite all the discussion , I know I really like the illustrations being posted here.......the philosophy uh......interesting.

5th February 2016, 01:43 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Mahratt offers one of the most reasonable comments noting that writers or persons nitpicking in observations on art present great debate. It offers opportunity for those participating to either change or reinforce opinions and offers perspective for others who have not yet decided. It is not necessary to add political or personal derisions nor negative notes, one should focus on positive support for their position. This is the strong approach, negative or sarcastic notes otherwise only make the person making them appear weak. We see this too much in political campaigns! Regarding the accuracy of five rivets or three for example in Bukharen sabres, obviously there are never such hard and fast rules, and in recalling communications with Mr Flindt many years ago, I'm sure he would agree. The preponderance of five, does not negate the possibility of three. A fine point, but supports the need for additional research and corroboration with art in question.