Matchlock accessories

rickystl · 1st February 2016, 01:40 AM

Hi Marcus.
That is a very nice Torador. I really like the iron chisel work and engraving. Very tastefully done. as mentioned above, the large cone would have been used to extinguish the match cord while not in use and help keep the cord tip dry during transit. The small horizonal cone would be to store the vent pick that would also be attached with a chain.
It would be interesting to know what the item is that Stu pointed out. Have no idea what it is.

Again, super nice Torador.

Rick

Pukka Bundook · 1st February 2016, 04:04 AM

Stu,

Here are a couple of old paintings with the gun ready for use, with matchcord wrapped around the buttstock;

The first is of Shah Jahangir. (son of Shah Jahan)

Rick, I have no clue what the other little accessory is, it is wired in place and the wire looks new. Maybe not related at all??

All the best,
Richard.

Marcus · 1st February 2016, 01:49 PM

Thanks for all the comments and information. Would people guess this was Mughal? Happy also to hear opinions about age.
Marcus
P.S. The short bit of match was just cut for the recent pictures. It actually is a bit too thick that serpent. It fits my Japanese matchlock better. I have timed its burn as 5 minutes per inch.

Pukka Bundook · 1st February 2016, 03:16 PM

Marcus,

I do wish All Indian arms were easier to date!
As most remained very much the same from the time of Akbar to the mid 19th century, it is only in small details or decoration that we might see differences.
Even then, decoration could and often was added later so we are a bit at sea.

In Robert Elgood's books, he will attribute a certain matchlock to a certain period, but I would very much like to know Why such attribution is made!
"OK, What makes this one mid 18th century?" type of thing.
I have looked and looked at matchlocks from the Indian sub -continent, and have found up to now very little evidence for age.
It would appear that barrels with a very heavy, parallel breech, then a turned section, are somewhat later than those with a tapered breech, but that is something I am still working on.
Of course, a nice inscription helps!...........butvnot very often!
If anyone else knows what signs to look for in dating these arms, I would be most grateful to learn.
If I had to guess, I'd say yours was late 18th C,- early 19th c. going by the engraving on the lock -plates.
Might be wrong, and I hope if so, someone can Tell me why I'm wrong!

Interesting that my homemade matchcord burns at the same rate, Marcus.
(Inch in 5 minutes)

Jens Nordlunde · 1st February 2016, 03:58 PM

Unfortunately Richard is right. Decorations and inscriptions could have been added later. To this comes that even in India, centuries ago, faking an inscription with the name of a famous smiths name was not uncommon, or maybe adding a date years before the gun was made.
But on the other hand, the decoration and the inscription could be of the same time as the gun :-).

stenoyab · 1st February 2016, 09:30 PM

Heres one I own, the cover for the pan, the vent pick, the pan scraper are all held by chains. The fourth chain I assume was to hold one end of the matchcord...... sorry my matchcord is an old shoe lace.... but it shows what I mean.

I have another matchlock with a tube on the side with a small vent pircker in it, that is held purely by friction, no chain.

Pukka Bundook · 2nd February 2016, 02:20 AM

Stenoyab,

That is an interesting arrangement.
Is the pan -cover hinged, or does it come off for firing?

I ask, as the accessories you show appear to fit into holes ahead of the pan.
I have seen these holes before, mostly square, and when we see these, there is apparently no hinged pan -cover. A close -up of the pan both exposed and covered, from above would be really appreciated!

It looks a nice and interesting arm.
In another thread, I would like to see this and the other you mention.

Marcus,
I am wondering if the small mystery implement on your gun was meant to be attached by the ring at the opposite end? If attached in that manner, the lit match would push into the far end, and with this tube having a hole in the side, the match could be kept lit without scorching anything.

Just a guess and al that!

Best regards,

Richard.

1st February 2016, 04:04 AM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Stu, Here are a couple of old paintings with the gun ready for use, with matchcord wrapped around the buttstock; The first is of Shah Jahangir. (son of Shah Jahan) Rick, I have no clue what the other little accessory is, it is wired in place and the wire looks new. Maybe not related at all?? All the best, Richard. Attached Images

1st February 2016, 01:49 PM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Where and when Thanks for all the comments and information. Would people guess this was Mughal? Happy also to hear opinions about age. Marcus P.S. The short bit of match was just cut for the recent pictures. It actually is a bit too thick that serpent. It fits my Japanese matchlock better. I have timed its burn as 5 minutes per inch.

1st February 2016, 09:30 PM	#6
stenoyab Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43	Heres one I own, the cover for the pan, the vent pick, the pan scraper are all held by chains. The fourth chain I assume was to hold one end of the matchcord...... sorry my matchcord is an old shoe lace.... but it shows what I mean. I have another matchlock with a tube on the side with a small vent pircker in it, that is held purely by friction, no chain. Attached Images

1st February 2016, 01:40 AM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Hi Marcus. That is a very nice Torador. I really like the iron chisel work and engraving. Very tastefully done. as mentioned above, the large cone would have been used to extinguish the match cord while not in use and help keep the cord tip dry during transit. The small horizonal cone would be to store the vent pick that would also be attached with a chain. It would be interesting to know what the item is that Stu pointed out. Have no idea what it is. Again, super nice Torador. Rick

1st February 2016, 03:16 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Marcus, I do wish All Indian arms were easier to date! As most remained very much the same from the time of Akbar to the mid 19th century, it is only in small details or decoration that we might see differences. Even then, decoration could and often was added later so we are a bit at sea. In Robert Elgood's books, he will attribute a certain matchlock to a certain period, but I would very much like to know Why such attribution is made! "OK, What makes this one mid 18th century?" type of thing. I have looked and looked at matchlocks from the Indian sub -continent, and have found up to now very little evidence for age. It would appear that barrels with a very heavy, parallel breech, then a turned section, are somewhat later than those with a tapered breech, but that is something I am still working on. Of course, a nice inscription helps!...........butvnot very often! If anyone else knows what signs to look for in dating these arms, I would be most grateful to learn. If I had to guess, I'd say yours was late 18th C,- early 19th c. going by the engraving on the lock -plates. Might be wrong, and I hope if so, someone can Tell me why I'm wrong! Interesting that my homemade matchcord burns at the same rate, Marcus. (Inch in 5 minutes)

1st February 2016, 03:58 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Unfortunately Richard is right. Decorations and inscriptions could have been added later. To this comes that even in India, centuries ago, faking an inscription with the name of a famous smiths name was not uncommon, or maybe adding a date years before the gun was made. But on the other hand, the decoration and the inscription could be of the same time as the gun :-).

2nd February 2016, 02:20 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Stenoyab, That is an interesting arrangement. Is the pan -cover hinged, or does it come off for firing? I ask, as the accessories you show appear to fit into holes ahead of the pan. I have seen these holes before, mostly square, and when we see these, there is apparently no hinged pan -cover. A close -up of the pan both exposed and covered, from above would be really appreciated! It looks a nice and interesting arm. In another thread, I would like to see this and the other you mention. Marcus, I am wondering if the small mystery implement on your gun was meant to be attached by the ring at the opposite end? If attached in that manner, the lit match would push into the far end, and with this tube having a hole in the side, the match could be kept lit without scorching anything. Just a guess and al that! Best regards, Richard.