Old saber from a barn in northeastern Pennsylvania

Lee · 24th January 2016, 01:58 PM

Ulfberth, I think that you have surely 'nailed' it right on the head! The owner remembers swinging it around in the barn as a child. I'll ask if there is anything in the family history that might favor any of the possibilities pointed out by M. Eley. I know that my friend also has what he believes is an American Civil War naval officer's sword along with a picture of the original owner in uniform wearing it! I'll see about getting pictures of that and will report back whatever else I learn.

The flat back did make me wonder if the blade were French, but there were no remains of any engraving there. So, I do not feel totally ignorant and my friend will be thrilled that with your help the original origin has been identified. Thank you all for your assistance thus far!

Shakethetrees · 24th January 2016, 04:27 PM

These are some of he most wonderfully balanced edged weapons out there.

I got one many years ago from an antique dealer dated from the 1830's and, without getting into the subtleties of fighting styles, for basic defense when you need something that is perfect for down and dirty hacking and visual intimidation, you'd be hard pressed to find another that is superior!

Check the back carefully near where the guard meets the blade. The manufacturer and date should be etched there.

Another thought I had about its origin. In the family is a U.S. Naval Officer's sword, correct? The U.S. was in Haiti in 1915, and again in 1919-1920.

While Haiti was not a French Colony after about 1805 and was somewhat of a pariah country during the 19th century, I would think these cutlasses would have been available on the open market in the late 19th/early 20th for use as agricultural tools.

It will take some time, but it is possible to acquire the Naval Officer's service record, revealing his past service entitlements.

A shot in the dark, but a possibility of uncovering pay dirt!

This model was never imported for use by either side during the Civil War. I'll have to dig out my references, but I believe some info about this weapon is in a couple of books put out by Man At Arms several years ago, titled something like "fighting arms in the age of sail" or something like that. My old mind is going.....

BUT, they were evidently used as a model for the U.S. Model 1860 naval cutlass that was still to be found in lockers aboard some American ships into WWII.

There's no confusion between the French and U.S. models, as the one under discussion had a sheet iron grip and large "soup ladle" guard, while the M-1860 had typical Cavalry saber mounts and a brass guard, with a spirally wrapped leather covered grip similar to the then current cavalry sabers. It's scabbard was composed of all black leather with copper rivets about every two inches or so.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2016, 06:29 PM

Ulfberth, you are most welcome, and thank you as always for responding to me personally. I am always grateful for your courtesy.
As has been noted your identification is spot on. While Haiti may have ceased officially as a French colony in 1805, the French presence certainly did not disappear. The note was mostly to relate the distinct French type of the sword and the sans guard condition toward machete type arms in use in tropical regions. Actually, 'machetes' developed prominently in Spanish colonial areas of New Spain from many 'espada ancha' frontier swords.

While no swords were imported in volume or record for the 'cause' in the period of the War of 1812, the entry of French arms through normal trade or other interaction in many ports of call cannot be discounted. As always, these arms as with other kinds of implements easily became surplus items which were of course recycled for utilitarian use.

I recall years ago when a broadsword with simple crossguard was found in Canada, and excited media hype claimed a medieval broadsword probably from the time of the Crusades. It turned out to be a Sudanese kaskara which had been once in the basement of a British soldier who had served in the Sudan and later moved to Canada.
In another case in New York, a sword was excavated and archaeologists proclaimed it to be a Roman gladius.......it turned out to be a U.S. M1833 foot artillery sword!

Many 'finds' in long static conditions such as garages, attics and barns of particularly out of context items do not necessarily secure provenance as part of its working life, but simply after the fact 'collected' status.

Our family once lived in a location which had been the site of an AAF base (it was about 1956) and my brother and I, adventurous young boys actually 'found' an old practice 500 pounder bomb partially buried in a field.
As it was empty (of course) we both carried the large piece through neighborhoods on the way home (to the dismay of many residents!).
While our parents were stunned, they let us keep this thing until dad finally put it in the attic.
When we moved and arrived states away my brother and I noted the 'bomb' was not among the things unloaded. Dad had 'forgotten' it, still in that attic.
I would have loved to see the faces of the new owners as they went into the attic!

ulfberth · 24th January 2016, 07:50 PM

Hi Guy's thanks for the compliments,

I think these are two controleur stamps, the one seems the be a B and the other could be an M instead of a W, that would place the sword right into the period of the Napoleonic wars.
I cant be sure, the stamps are not clear enough.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

M ELEY · 25th January 2016, 12:10 AM

Jim, great story about that bomb of yours!! Priceless! In our past correspondence, I've always enjoyed your incredible stories!

Back to this mystery sword. I had factored in the possibility of a parts sword 'used to whack cornstalks', as I put it. It would have made an effective machete for sugarcane and what not. Still, a part of me hopes it had a higher purpose in its present form. Hopefully, we'll see-

fernando · 25th January 2016, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

... I think these are two controleur stamps, the one seems the be a B and the other could be an M instead of a W, that would place the sword right into the period of the Napoleonic wars...

Yes, that sure is what immediately comes to mind but, the design of the shield/escutcheon and the relative position of the star don't concur

.

ulfberth · 25th January 2016, 01:10 PM

They do Fernando they do, but due the condition of the stamps and the pics it could be the one or the other, perhaps this distinction can be made IRL.
I have seen hundreds of these stamps IRL and if the blade is rusted ot pitted its easy to mistake the one for the other.
Thats way I stated " it could be" and " I cant be sure the stamps are not clear enough"

Lee · 25th January 2016, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

Another thought I had about its origin. In the family is a U.S. Naval Officer's sword, correct?
Check the back carefully near where the guard meets the blade. The manufacturer and date should be etched there.

I got confused with what my friend had told me; there is a Civil War sword descended in the family, but the naval officer apparently served in the Spanish American War time frame. I will get further details.

Because the blade looked 'French' to me, I had carefully searched for the usual script engraving along the back spine near the grip, but there was no trace. It may have been obliterated by rust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ulfberth

I cant be sure the stamps are not clear enough

My lighting unfortunately does not do a great job with the marks. Holding a LED flashlight close disclosed the 'star over W within shield stamp' fairly clearly. I will see about getting someone to hold the flashlight while I try a close-up and that should provide a clear image of that mark.

Continuing my correction about the incorrect family connection I provided above with some additional information:

1. My friend's grandfather (whose barn the cutlass came from) was an officer during WWI, apparently leading a unit staffed by black soldiers, that very likely fought in Europe and apparently he had brought home souvenirs of that conflict including a Luger pistol and a pickelhaube helmet.

2. The same gentleman, for a time, also had a seasonal home in Camden, South Carolina and brought back furniture and other items from that residence to Pennsylvania.

3. The sword was not hidden in the barn when my friend encountered it as a child, but there with a lot of other interesting old stuff.

4. The level of corrosion is fairly aggressive towards the tip.

I realize this information supports at least three of the theories suggested above...

Lee · 29th January 2016, 12:24 AM

The images looked a lot better on the camera preview screen, but here is the best one for what it is worth...

fernando · 29th January 2016, 01:11 PM

What do we have here ?

.

Lee · 29th January 2016, 01:41 PM

I think these are the identical blade marks; unfortunately depth of field issues prevent my close-up photo from properly showing the top of the shield in the star over W mark, but it is pretty clear to the naked eye with the sword in hand. Thank you all again.

CutlassCollector · 1st February 2016, 03:23 PM

I came across a list of poincons for Chatellerault today while looking for something else.
I found the W with star above in the shield which relates to S. Wideman controller First Class from 1836 to 1843.
He was plain W without the star - second class - from 1829 to 1836.

The director between 1837 and 1839 was C.L.C Dupont de Pontcharra whose stamp was a P with star above in a circle. If that is the same as your P stamp it would date the blade nicely to a two year period.

Regards,

CC

24th January 2016, 01:58 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 950	The forum community is once again triumphant Ulfberth, I think that you have surely 'nailed' it right on the head! The owner remembers swinging it around in the barn as a child. I'll ask if there is anything in the family history that might favor any of the possibilities pointed out by M. Eley. I know that my friend also has what he believes is an American Civil War naval officer's sword along with a picture of the original owner in uniform wearing it! I'll see about getting pictures of that and will report back whatever else I learn. The flat back did make me wonder if the blade were French, but there were no remains of any engraving there. So, I do not feel totally ignorant and my friend will be thrilled that with your help the original origin has been identified. Thank you all for your assistance thus far!

24th January 2016, 04:27 PM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	These are some of he most wonderfully balanced edged weapons out there. I got one many years ago from an antique dealer dated from the 1830's and, without getting into the subtleties of fighting styles, for basic defense when you need something that is perfect for down and dirty hacking and visual intimidation, you'd be hard pressed to find another that is superior! Check the back carefully near where the guard meets the blade. The manufacturer and date should be etched there. Another thought I had about its origin. In the family is a U.S. Naval Officer's sword, correct? The U.S. was in Haiti in 1915, and again in 1919-1920. While Haiti was not a French Colony after about 1805 and was somewhat of a pariah country during the 19th century, I would think these cutlasses would have been available on the open market in the late 19th/early 20th for use as agricultural tools. It will take some time, but it is possible to acquire the Naval Officer's service record, revealing his past service entitlements. A shot in the dark, but a possibility of uncovering pay dirt! This model was never imported for use by either side during the Civil War. I'll have to dig out my references, but I believe some info about this weapon is in a couple of books put out by Man At Arms several years ago, titled something like "fighting arms in the age of sail" or something like that. My old mind is going..... BUT, they were evidently used as a model for the U.S. Model 1860 naval cutlass that was still to be found in lockers aboard some American ships into WWII. There's no confusion between the French and U.S. models, as the one under discussion had a sheet iron grip and large "soup ladle" guard, while the M-1860 had typical Cavalry saber mounts and a brass guard, with a spirally wrapped leather covered grip similar to the then current cavalry sabers. It's scabbard was composed of all black leather with copper rivets about every two inches or so. Last edited by Shakethetrees; 24th January 2016 at 04:39 PM.

24th January 2016, 07:50 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 435	Hi Guy's thanks for the compliments, I think these are two controleur stamps, the one seems the be a B and the other could be an M instead of a W, that would place the sword right into the period of the Napoleonic wars. I cant be sure, the stamps are not clear enough. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

29th January 2016, 12:24 AM	#9
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 950	The images looked a lot better on the camera preview screen, but here is the best one for what it is worth... Attached Images

29th January 2016, 01:11 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What do we have here ? . Attached Images

24th January 2016, 06:29 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,595	Ulfberth, you are most welcome, and thank you as always for responding to me personally. I am always grateful for your courtesy. As has been noted your identification is spot on. While Haiti may have ceased officially as a French colony in 1805, the French presence certainly did not disappear. The note was mostly to relate the distinct French type of the sword and the sans guard condition toward machete type arms in use in tropical regions. Actually, 'machetes' developed prominently in Spanish colonial areas of New Spain from many 'espada ancha' frontier swords. While no swords were imported in volume or record for the 'cause' in the period of the War of 1812, the entry of French arms through normal trade or other interaction in many ports of call cannot be discounted. As always, these arms as with other kinds of implements easily became surplus items which were of course recycled for utilitarian use. I recall years ago when a broadsword with simple crossguard was found in Canada, and excited media hype claimed a medieval broadsword probably from the time of the Crusades. It turned out to be a Sudanese kaskara which had been once in the basement of a British soldier who had served in the Sudan and later moved to Canada. In another case in New York, a sword was excavated and archaeologists proclaimed it to be a Roman gladius.......it turned out to be a U.S. M1833 foot artillery sword! Many 'finds' in long static conditions such as garages, attics and barns of particularly out of context items do not necessarily secure provenance as part of its working life, but simply after the fact 'collected' status. Our family once lived in a location which had been the site of an AAF base (it was about 1956) and my brother and I, adventurous young boys actually 'found' an old practice 500 pounder bomb partially buried in a field. As it was empty (of course) we both carried the large piece through neighborhoods on the way home (to the dismay of many residents!). While our parents were stunned, they let us keep this thing until dad finally put it in the attic. When we moved and arrived states away my brother and I noted the 'bomb' was not among the things unloaded. Dad had 'forgotten' it, still in that attic. I would have loved to see the faces of the new owners as they went into the attic!

25th January 2016, 12:10 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,196	Jim, great story about that bomb of yours!! Priceless! In our past correspondence, I've always enjoyed your incredible stories! Back to this mystery sword. I had factored in the possibility of a parts sword 'used to whack cornstalks', as I put it. It would have made an effective machete for sugarcane and what not. Still, a part of me hopes it had a higher purpose in its present form. Hopefully, we'll see-

25th January 2016, 01:10 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 435	They do Fernando they do, but due the condition of the stamps and the pics it could be the one or the other, perhaps this distinction can be made IRL. I have seen hundreds of these stamps IRL and if the blade is rusted ot pitted its easy to mistake the one for the other. Thats way I stated " it could be" and " I cant be sure the stamps are not clear enough"

29th January 2016, 01:41 PM	#11
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 950	Precisely I think these are the identical blade marks; unfortunately depth of field issues prevent my close-up photo from properly showing the top of the shield in the star over W mark, but it is pretty clear to the naked eye with the sword in hand. Thank you all again.

1st February 2016, 03:23 PM	#12
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 368	I came across a list of poincons for Chatellerault today while looking for something else. I found the W with star above in the shield which relates to S. Wideman controller First Class from 1836 to 1843. He was plain W without the star - second class - from 1829 to 1836. The director between 1837 and 1839 was C.L.C Dupont de Pontcharra whose stamp was a P with star above in a circle. If that is the same as your P stamp it would date the blade nicely to a two year period. Regards, CC