The exhibition oriental weapons "The Mortal Beauty" of private collections in Russia,

mahratt · 20th January 2016, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Mahratt and Ariel,
Thank you so much guys for continuing this review of these references as well as the topic in general from objective point of view. With this you both reveal the attention to detail you have observed to these very complex topics on Indian arms.
While I have studied these weapons for very many years, I confess I have never reached the depth you both have clearly reached, so I would count myself among the many who may benefit from these books.

Again, thank you both for this most useful and informative exchange!

Dear Jim.

Thank you for the nice words. I believe that everyone should read the book, to make up his mind about what is written in it.

I'm just expressing my opinion about what I read in the book.

mahratt · 20th January 2016, 07:13 PM

"1. For the record: I do NOT agree with the author. I stated from the beginning that the chapter was an introductory review designed for local Russian readers who do not know English and have to rely on Russian second, - and third- hand sources, often poorly translated. For that audience it is good.
I guess my comments about the issue of Kshatriyas vs. the Gujaratis go unchallenged :-) Good. Hopefully, the author will not repeat a similar error in the future."

It is so pity that you are not familiar with the Russian Oriental studies. It is on a par with French or English Oriental studies.
About the Kshatriyas. Of course I agree with you. It is exactly the author of the article in catalog mixed in one pile Kshatriyas with Rajputs, Jats, Dogras and Gurkhas with Coorgs.

"2. Sorry, I cannot and do not "trust" the allegedly mind-reading author. He operates from the Western point of view that is largely inapplicable to the Hindu one.
Again, he is well advised to carefully read Elgood's book specifically addressing the issue of tight bonds between Hindu arms and ritual, and learn something new. This may change his attitude to Indian metaphysics."

About the chakras. There are description of the use of chakras by ascetics in 16th. No metaphysics. They just throw it into the Portuguese who fired at them from muskets. They do not even have prayed before. And in addition to the chakras they had swords and knives.

"3. The author should read the reference I provided and not a third-hand information from the popular-audience Nosov's book in Russian.
At the same time, he may want to look for " hastivaraka" ( same source)"

No problem. On the same page ("Kauthiliya Arthasastra", transl. by R.P. Kangles ( Motilal Banasidass, Delhi, 2003. ISBN: 81-208-0040-0) Vol 2, p. 132

said about "an axe with a trident at one end or both ends". This axe and your "hastivaraka" both are real weapons or only "hastivaraka" is real?

"4. First, the author's main line of attack against Ms. Karlova totally misses the point: he just distorted the purpose of her reference. Second, we do not know what was the objective worth and value of Royal Lahori weapons. Does the author? Perhaps, Hermitage examples paled in comparison.
Be it as it may, Prince Saltykov exhibited a totally ungentlemanly and low-class behavior. Feh....."

No attacks. But it is need accuracy of citation. Prince Saltykov died 157 years ago. And it was amazing man.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Saltykov

"but for the rest of us, not deeply dedicated to the study of Indian culture and weapons, this book might be useful"
You should started with this. I would not write so much then

mahratt · 20th January 2016, 07:20 PM

Photo:

ariel · 20th January 2016, 07:42 PM

Just for the fun of it: what kind of Royal Swords were likely to be seen in the Lahore collection, and how would they compare to the Saltykov's bazaar ( Hermitage) acquisitions ?

Well, on P.50, Ms. Karlova cites Saltykov letter to his brother in Russia. Saltykov bought 2 metal shields, one straight-bladed sword and two daggers for a total of 750 rupees ( ~ 120 GBP, ~$21, ~15 GBP at that time. Different sources give different numbers, likely due to geographical differences, but at the most a cost of very modest middle-class living in rural England at that time). Those went to the Hermitage.

And here is a real Royal Sword, likely comparable to some examples in Lahore. A gift from Maharaja of Jaipur to Edward VII in 1902 ( about 30 years after Saltykov's trip to India). Solid gold and 2,000 carats of diamonds.

And Saltykov himself said that the Lahore weapons were " ... extremely rich...".

Yup, Saltykov was a cheapie and a "sour grapes" man :-)))

mahratt · 20th January 2016, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Just for the fun of it: what kind of Royal Swords were likely to be seen in the Lahore collection, and how would they compare to the Saltykov's bazaar ( Hermitage) acquisitions ?

Well, on P.50, Ms. Karlova cites Saltykov letter to his brother in Russia. Saltykov bought 2 metal shields, one straight-bladed sword and two daggers for a total of 750 rupees ( ~ 120 GBP, ~$21, ~15 GBP at that time. Different sources give different numbers, likely due to geographical differences, but at the most a cost of very modest middle-class living in rural England at that time). Those went to the Hermitage.

And here is a real Royal Sword, likely comparable to some examples in Lahore. A gift from Maharaja of Jaipur to Edward VII in 1902 ( about 30 years after Saltykov's trip to India). Solid gold and 2,000 carats of diamonds.

And Saltykov himself said that the Lahore weapons were " ... extremely rich...".

Yup, Saltykov was a cheapie and a "sour grapes" man :-)))

I told only about the exhibition and the catalog only. Just my opinion. I do not understand what makes you so angrily that you attack me constantly. And it is very strange to talk so unkind about man who lived 200 years ago, he can not hear you. It is madness. If you continue I afraid moderators will warn you.

Saltykov was in India half a century earlier before the Maharaja of Jaipur gave Edward VII expensive wonderful very rich sword and probably specially made for this event. Saltykov bought samples of traditional Indian weapons (this is easily seen by looking pictures of the Hermitage). The fact that you have shown - this item is perfect, but I think no one will say that this is a traditional Indian sword. Saltykov interested authentic Indian weapons. Prince Edward VII seems feel love great jewelry gems. And you inconsiderate. Prince Saltykov told about European weapons.

David · 20th January 2016, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I told only about the exhibition and the catalog only. Just my opinion. I do not understand what makes you so angrily that you attack me constantly. And it is very strange to talk so unkind about man who lived 200 years ago, he can not hear you. It is madness. If you continue I afraid moderators will warn you.

You guys (and i do mean BOTH of you) are getting extremely tiresome. When the hammer falls it will undoubtable fall on ALL the bickering parties who seem to find it impossible not to drag their personal issues and past petty squabbles into this forum, much to the displeasure of all the rest of us. Give it a break guys. Otherwise i am pretty sure a reckoning time is coming ALL involved.

ariel · 20th January 2016, 11:22 PM

David,
I am not waging personal wars here; I am just trying to correct objective inaccuracies in the review that pertain to the historical assessment of Indian military tradition.
My arguments are not directed at the author of the review, but at the factual content of posted comments and I closely adhere to the Forum rules.

Jim McDougall expressed his full satisfaction by the content and educational value of the exchange.

As you can see, at least somebody is interested and is reading it:-)

That is what this Forum is all about.

I fail to see any transgression of the rules on my part.
With best wishes,
Ariel

ariel · 21st January 2016, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I told only about the exhibition and the catalog only. Just my opinion. I do not understand what makes you so angrily that you attack me constantly. And it is very strange to talk so unkind about man who lived 200 years ago, he can not hear you. It is madness. If you continue I afraid moderators will warn you.

Under no circumstance do I attack you personally, and there is no anger on my part. There was not, and there will not be any personal insult or sarcasm. I just find inaccuracies and misinterpretations in your presentation of your arguments and try to correct them using direct references and objective facts. If you re-read my comments carefully, you will not find any attack or unkind word about you as a person.

Arguing about the facts is another ball of wax.

The whole idea of the Forum is to exchange objective information ( interspersed, of course, with personal but objective interpretation of the content).

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.
The fact that he is dead plays no role: all historical personalities are dead by now. This had never prevented historians to express their opinions about them. Alexander the Great? Caligula? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Sometime ago I have read withering critique of Mother Theresa, of all people.

Battara · 21st January 2016, 12:24 AM

I agree with David, especially posts after Jim's feedback.

You are skating on thin ice, especially if I am getting involved!

Please be very careful........

mahratt · 21st January 2016, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.
The fact that he is dead plays no role: all historical personalities are dead by now. This had never prevented historians to express their opinions about them. Alexander the Great? Caligula? Hitler? Stalin? Mao? Sometime ago I have read withering critique of Mother Theresa, of all people.

I do not understand what this has to study the weapons? But, since you're talking about it, let's find out the situation.

Prince Saltykov, as I understand it, did not say something about what you say to the owner in person. So Saltykov did not offend his host. If you specify more accurately describes that Prince Saltykov, perhaps all will be easier to draw conclusions. I do not remember this quote, so ask your clarification.
It seems strange to compare politicians and philanthropists. But that's just my opinion ...

estcrh · 22nd January 2016, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The whole idea of the Forum is to exchange objective information ( interspersed, of course, with personal but objective interpretation of the content).

As to prince Saltykov, my opinion about him plummeted down after his badmouthing his host who invited him into his house. Kind of " The food was terrible, and the portions were too small". This is not something I find acceptable.

Ariel, I agree with you as far as exchanging information etc. Sometimes peoples opinions are completely different, in this case it is good to discuss the various sources/references that have formed these opinions. As long as it is an intelligent inquiry and not a personal attack this is an important feature of any forum, the ability to question someones sources, references and personal opinions.

On the matter of Prince Aleksei Dmitrievich Saltykov, I was under the impression that he was writing letters to his brother that were later published into what we are now reading (Lettres sur l'Inde, Author: Soltykoff, Prince Alexis, 1848). Was he actually "bad mouthing" his host or were his original letters just a clear picture of his observations that were not meant for publication. Maybe when published he should have edited what he wrote and removed any offensive remarks, it is hard to second guess now. The various versions of this book do contain some very good images that were supposedly made from his drawing.

ariel · 20th January 2016, 09:15 PM

[QUOTE=mahratt]"1.
It is so pity that you are not familiar with the Russian Oriental studies. It is on a par with French or English Oriental studies.
----------------------------
Russian historians/archeologists are unsurpassable in the field of "nomadic" and "Caucasian" studies.There are some good contributions to the Ottoman and ( less) Persian field. India was not their cup of tea. Except for occasional travellers ( Nikitin, Saltykov) they never ventured there and made no original contribution to the field. The only systematic Russian book about Indian weapons is a relatively new, semi-popular, book by Nosov, with heavy borrowing from Elgood, Pant and Rawson. Comparing Russian contributors to French and, especially, British researchers is impossible. After all, Brits controlled India de facto or de jure for... what? 300 years non stop? Built universities there, sent scientists, published books to no end, assembled collections, had public exhibitions...... Come on, let's not engage in patriotic fantasies:-)

__________________________________________________ ______________

About the Kshatriyas. Of course I agree with you. It is exactly the author of the article in catalog mixed in one pile Kshatriyas with Rajputs, Jats, Dogras and Gurkhas with Coorgs.
-----------------------------
Please, all of us can read here:-)
__________________________________________________ ______________
"2.

About the chakras. There are description of the use of chakras by ascetics in 16th. No metaphysics. They just throw it into the Portuguese who fired at them from muskets. They do not even have prayed before.
----------------------------------------
That is exactly your problem: you equate the act of "releasing" the mukta with the damage it inflicts. Try to understand their metaphysics.
__________________________________________________ _______________
"3. On the same page ("Kauthiliya Arthasastra", transl. by R.P. Kangles ( Motilal Banasidass, Delhi, 2003. ISBN: 81-208-0040-0) Vol 2, p. 132

said about "an axe with a trident at one end or both ends". This axe and your "hastivaraka" both are real weapons or only "hastivaraka" is real?
------------------------------
Where is the mention of a word "axe" in relation to hastivaraka or hataka?
Please do not assign to me any words that I did not even utter.
__________________________________________________ _________
4. Prince Saltykov died 157 years ago. And it was amazing man.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Saltykov

---------------------------------------
Yes, a traveller and a dealer in Indian antiques.
And ( based on his letter to his brother) not somebody I would care to invite into my house:-)))))

mahratt · 21st January 2016, 06:02 AM

[QUOTE=ariel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

"1.
It is so pity that you are not familiar with the Russian Oriental studies. It is on a par with French or English Oriental studies.
----------------------------
Russian historians/archeologists are unsurpassable in the field of "nomadic" and "Caucasian" studies.There are some good contributions to the Ottoman and ( less) Persian field. India was not their cup of tea. Except for occasional travellers ( Nikitin, Saltykov) they never ventured there and made no original contribution to the field. The only systematic Russian book about Indian weapons is a relatively new, semi-popular, book by Nosov, with heavy borrowing from Elgood, Pant and Rawson. Comparing Russian contributors to French and, especially, British researchers is impossible. After all, Brits controlled India de facto or de jure for... what? 300 years non stop? Built universities there, sent scientists, published books to no end, assembled collections, had public exhibitions...... Come on, let's not engage in patriotic fantasies:-)

__________________________________________________ ______________

About the Kshatriyas. Of course I agree with you. It is exactly the author of the article in catalog mixed in one pile Kshatriyas with Rajputs, Jats, Dogras and Gurkhas with Coorgs.
-----------------------------
Please, all of us can read here:-)
__________________________________________________ ______________
"2.

About the chakras. There are description of the use of chakras by ascetics in 16th. No metaphysics. They just throw it into the Portuguese who fired at them from muskets. They do not even have prayed before.
----------------------------------------
That is exactly your problem: you equate the act of "releasing" the mukta with the damage it inflicts. Try to understand their metaphysics.
__________________________________________________ _______________
"3. On the same page ("Kauthiliya Arthasastra", transl. by R.P. Kangles ( Motilal Banasidass, Delhi, 2003. ISBN: 81-208-0040-0) Vol 2, p. 132

said about "an axe with a trident at one end or both ends". This axe and your "hastivaraka" both are real weapons or only "hastivaraka" is real?
------------------------------
Where is the mention of a word "axe" in relation to hastivaraka or hataka?
Please do not assign to me any words that I did not even utter.
__________________________________________________ _________
4. Prince Saltykov died 157 years ago. And it was amazing man.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Saltykov

---------------------------------------
Yes, a traveller and a dealer in Indian antiques.
And ( based on his letter to his brother) not somebody I would care to invite into my house:-)))))

1. I am pleased that you think I'm a patriot. I really love the country I was born. But, in this case, we are not talking about it. There are a number of the Russian Oriental studies, which article has not yet been published in English.To study weapons it is not only reading of books about weapons or the diaries of travellers. First of all it is stadying of culture of the region.

2. About the axe. Please see picture bellow.

3. Prince Saltykov never was a dealer. You should have read about it carefully. He was a collector and patron of the arts (philanthropist). There is a difference between the patron of the arts and the dealer.

"At home he always had some eccentricities, went to the Persian or Indian costume (hence his nickname "Indian"). His apartment always looked like a Museum of curiosities and was furnished in the East. Everywhere he lived as a hermit for whole days engaged in painting, which had a big love, and "invited them to his house only a good painter, because he was not the last."

Gloucester candlestick the beginning of the XII century from the collection of A. D. Saltykov now adorns London's Victoria and albert Museum
The comments from those who knew him, Prince Saltykov "was one of the rare people gifted with a pleasant character, without the slightest pride, and charlatanism and moreover modesty" in dealing with others was always extremely soft, gentle and helpful. One of his contemporaries recalled that Saltykov was featured elegant and aristocratic appearance, in external manners he was reminiscent of Chopin; in forty years he had a youthful flexibility and features of his thin, oblong face had a melancholic good-natured expression[1].

He died on 23 March 1859 in Paris, where he lived as a hermit and invited them to his house only artists."

20th January 2016, 07:20 PM	#3
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Photo: Attached Images

20th January 2016, 07:42 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just for the fun of it: what kind of Royal Swords were likely to be seen in the Lahore collection, and how would they compare to the Saltykov's bazaar ( Hermitage) acquisitions ? Well, on P.50, Ms. Karlova cites Saltykov letter to his brother in Russia. Saltykov bought 2 metal shields, one straight-bladed sword and two daggers for a total of 750 rupees ( ~ 120 GBP, ~$21, ~15 GBP at that time. Different sources give different numbers, likely due to geographical differences, but at the most a cost of very modest middle-class living in rural England at that time). Those went to the Hermitage. And here is a real Royal Sword, likely comparable to some examples in Lahore. A gift from Maharaja of Jaipur to Edward VII in 1902 ( about 30 years after Saltykov's trip to India). Solid gold and 2,000 carats of diamonds. And Saltykov himself said that the Lahore weapons were " ... extremely rich...". Yup, Saltykov was a cheapie and a "sour grapes" man :-))) Attached Images

20th January 2016, 07:13 PM	#2
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	"1. For the record: I do NOT agree with the author. I stated from the beginning that the chapter was an introductory review designed for local Russian readers who do not know English and have to rely on Russian second, - and third- hand sources, often poorly translated. For that audience it is good. I guess my comments about the issue of Kshatriyas vs. the Gujaratis go unchallenged :-) Good. Hopefully, the author will not repeat a similar error in the future." It is so pity that you are not familiar with the Russian Oriental studies. It is on a par with French or English Oriental studies. About the Kshatriyas. Of course I agree with you. It is exactly the author of the article in catalog mixed in one pile Kshatriyas with Rajputs, Jats, Dogras and Gurkhas with Coorgs. "2. Sorry, I cannot and do not "trust" the allegedly mind-reading author. He operates from the Western point of view that is largely inapplicable to the Hindu one. Again, he is well advised to carefully read Elgood's book specifically addressing the issue of tight bonds between Hindu arms and ritual, and learn something new. This may change his attitude to Indian metaphysics." About the chakras. There are description of the use of chakras by ascetics in 16th. No metaphysics. They just throw it into the Portuguese who fired at them from muskets. They do not even have prayed before. And in addition to the chakras they had swords and knives. "3. The author should read the reference I provided and not a third-hand information from the popular-audience Nosov's book in Russian. At the same time, he may want to look for " hastivaraka" ( same source)" No problem. On the same page ("Kauthiliya Arthasastra", transl. by R.P. Kangles ( Motilal Banasidass, Delhi, 2003. ISBN: 81-208-0040-0) Vol 2, p. 132 said about "an axe with a trident at one end or both ends". This axe and your "hastivaraka" both are real weapons or only "hastivaraka" is real? "4. First, the author's main line of attack against Ms. Karlova totally misses the point: he just distorted the purpose of her reference. Second, we do not know what was the objective worth and value of Royal Lahori weapons. Does the author? Perhaps, Hermitage examples paled in comparison. Be it as it may, Prince Saltykov exhibited a totally ungentlemanly and low-class behavior. Feh....." No attacks. But it is need accuracy of citation. Prince Saltykov died 157 years ago. And it was amazing man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Saltykov "but for the rest of us, not deeply dedicated to the study of Indian culture and weapons, this book might be useful" You should started with this. I would not write so much then

20th January 2016, 11:22 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	David, I am not waging personal wars here; I am just trying to correct objective inaccuracies in the review that pertain to the historical assessment of Indian military tradition. My arguments are not directed at the author of the review, but at the factual content of posted comments and I closely adhere to the Forum rules. Jim McDougall expressed his full satisfaction by the content and educational value of the exchange. As you can see, at least somebody is interested and is reading it:-) That is what this Forum is all about. I fail to see any transgression of the rules on my part. With best wishes, Ariel

21st January 2016, 12:24 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,325	I agree with David, especially posts after Jim's feedback. You are skating on thin ice, especially if I am getting involved! Please be very careful........

20th January 2016, 09:15 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	[QUOTE=mahratt]"1. It is so pity that you are not familiar with the Russian Oriental studies. It is on a par with French or English Oriental studies. ---------------------------- Russian historians/archeologists are unsurpassable in the field of "nomadic" and "Caucasian" studies.There are some good contributions to the Ottoman and ( less) Persian field. India was not their cup of tea. Except for occasional travellers ( Nikitin, Saltykov) they never ventured there and made no original contribution to the field. The only systematic Russian book about Indian weapons is a relatively new, semi-popular, book by Nosov, with heavy borrowing from Elgood, Pant and Rawson. Comparing Russian contributors to French and, especially, British researchers is impossible. After all, Brits controlled India de facto or de jure for... what? 300 years non stop? Built universities there, sent scientists, published books to no end, assembled collections, had public exhibitions...... Come on, let's not engage in patriotic fantasies:-) __________________________________________________ ______________ About the Kshatriyas. Of course I agree with you. It is exactly the author of the article in catalog mixed in one pile Kshatriyas with Rajputs, Jats, Dogras and Gurkhas with Coorgs. ----------------------------- Please, all of us can read here:-) __________________________________________________ ______________ "2. About the chakras. There are description of the use of chakras by ascetics in 16th. No metaphysics. They just throw it into the Portuguese who fired at them from muskets. They do not even have prayed before. ---------------------------------------- That is exactly your problem: you equate the act of "releasing" the mukta with the damage it inflicts. Try to understand their metaphysics. __________________________________________________ _______________ "3. On the same page ("Kauthiliya Arthasastra", transl. by R.P. Kangles ( Motilal Banasidass, Delhi, 2003. ISBN: 81-208-0040-0) Vol 2, p. 132 said about "an axe with a trident at one end or both ends". This axe and your "hastivaraka" both are real weapons or only "hastivaraka" is real? ------------------------------ Where is the mention of a word "axe" in relation to hastivaraka or hataka? Please do not assign to me any words that I did not even utter. __________________________________________________ _________ 4. Prince Saltykov died 157 years ago. And it was amazing man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Saltykov --------------------------------------- Yes, a traveller and a dealer in Indian antiques. And ( based on his letter to his brother) not somebody I would care to invite into my house:-)))))