Kris question to the knowledgeables

Pusaka · 15th January 2006, 02:21 PM

Nechesh, calm down, you’re a very angry person, it’s only a damn forum debate, relax. I notice that you go out of your way to make little of anything I say, but that’s fine.
As I said before is the symbol I used for Om really modern?

Rick · 15th January 2006, 03:35 PM

Pusaka don't make public judgements on another person's demeanor . I think that you need to answer Nechesh's questions and he needs to answer yours and John's; that will allow the debate to continue in a civilised manner .

If this thread devolves into unpleasantness I'll close it ; everyone take a deep breath count to ten and resume .

Pusaka · 15th January 2006, 10:21 PM

Personally I am satisfied that the markings relate to the Om symbol and have the same meaning, this is my own personal belief so I am not saying you must agree. Im sure there is very little difference between a Javanese Om symbol and a Balinese Om symbol. We can see relationships in them all.

nechesh · 15th January 2006, 10:27 PM

John, you are absolutely right. And to Pusaka, my apologies for suggesting you were being arrogant to assume that if you saw no meaning in something that it simply doesn't exist. That was a judgement on my part and may very well have been an incorrect one. Sometimes we hit the enter key before we completely think things through.

Still John, your post here seems like something best dealt with in PM as i think we are back on the academic track now and i think finger pointing will only tend to derail that. Also, Pusaka seems the kind of chap who is very capable of fighting his own battles.

Yes, i was guilty as well, and for that i am sorry. I had already PMed Pusaka to say as much and offer him help in his studies. Let's move on, shall we?

MABAGANI · 16th January 2006, 06:17 AM

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Sang Keris · 16th January 2006, 01:21 PM

Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

Spunjer · 16th January 2006, 01:31 PM

thanks for the link, mabagani!

Pusaka · 16th January 2006, 01:35 PM

Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

Mans · 16th January 2006, 01:42 PM

Hi Dear all,

Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture.

In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning.

So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self.

So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris.

Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion.

Regards,

Mans.

Note :
Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote.

Ups, Sang Keris has told it

nechesh · 17th January 2006, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Mabagani, thank you for this very interesting website. It is worth viewing just for the wonderful illustration at the bottom of the page. One thing i noticed as i look through each illustration that was driven home every time i came to a grouping of keris was just how unique the form of the keris is. It is unlike ANY of the displayed Indian weapon forms. It is interesting, however to see a feature that IS similar to the keris sogokan on these Indian spearheads, but the asymetric blade and seperate gonjo are features i have seen no where else.

Ian · 17th January 2006, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

Thanks for the link. This collection of material has had several incarnations over the last six years or so. It has popped up with at least three or four different URLs to my knowledge, tending to disappear each time after a few months. So catch it while you can -- a lot of scans, many from Egerton, Stone, and other well known sources.

Ian.

MABAGANI · 17th January 2006, 05:35 AM

I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time.
http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm
http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/...bananindex.htm

Pusaka · 17th January 2006, 07:23 PM

In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas.
In relation the quote below taken from:

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...k_projects.htm

• Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there.
• Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all.

If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting.
Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals.
Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka.
Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect.
I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated.
Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

nechesh · 15th January 2006, 03:51 PM

A few things first Pusaka:
1. I am not at all angry, though maybe a little frustrated that you continue to put forth your theory with very little evidence as if it is an absolute. If you could show me an illusration of an AUM used in 14thC Jawa and then compare that to the earliest of Ron Dha known on keris i would be willing to give more weight to your aurguement.
2. I am not going "out of my way" to make little of everything you say. I am merely presently my own logical arguement to your theories based on what little i personally know about the keris. I would also love to solve this mystery. I don't know all the answers either, but i would like us to come as close as possible to the right conclusion based on solid evidence and observations. It may, as John suggests, remain a mystery. As i have said before, and will again, i like the way you think.This was a sincere comment, really. I actually think you are on the right track. I hope you will continue your research. I just think you have taken a slight wrong turn and if you think you are there already you are liable to miss something. Please don't take my diagreements with you personally. I am only trying to help you and all of us solve this mystery together. This is an academic discussion, not a personal one.
John, i find your ability to determine the sound pitch of internet writing astonishing.

Once again, i am merely presenting counter arguement. It wouldn't do us very well if everytime someone presented a theory that didn't quite ring true with us that we just threw up our hands and decided to go along with it. Repetition of an idea does not make it true. Remember WMDs?

My biggest complaint about Pusaka's theory is that he is using a 20thC keris w/ a 19thC Ron Dha form compared to a relatively recent AUM symbol to establish the origin of a symbolic keris feature that first appeared in a different form 600 yrs. ago. This is just bad research. I am sorry that i do not have any examples of the style of AUM symbol used in 14thC Jawa, but ALL these things have changed and evolved over the centuries. It would be wonderful if someone could find an authenticated example. I have, however, attached a drawing first sketched by Empu Suparman of the differences between Ron Dha of different periods of keris. It appeared, i believe, in a 1990 Knife Magazine article by, yes, Alan Maisey. You are correct that i do base a great deal of my understanding of the keris on Alan's writings and guidance. Still, i do have a mind of my own and we have not always agreed on all points keris.

Pusaka · 15th January 2006, 05:11 PM

To be honest nechesh I personally can see very little difference between the images you posted, just the characters are more defined in some then others yet they are still the same characters in all.

Secondly I don’t know why you think the Om symbol is modern, its my understanding that the symbol relates to Brahmi text which makes it ancient indeed. I will see if I can contact someone who will clear this up.

Can you please post the original illustration so that I may look at them in detail.

15th January 2006, 03:35 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Simmer Down Pusaka don't make public judgements on another person's demeanor . I think that you need to answer Nechesh's questions and he needs to answer yours and John's; that will allow the debate to continue in a civilised manner . If this thread devolves into unpleasantness I'll close it ; everyone take a deep breath count to ten and resume .

16th January 2006, 01:42 PM	#9
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	Hi Dear all, Indeed that the origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. They believed that the keris came from along time ago and they didn’t want to prove it. They just believed that as a culture. In the world of the Jawanese keris, old keris from Budha era is very simple. It has no Kembang Kacang, Greneng or Ron Dha. Usually just Sogokan and Kruwingan. Then, on Kediri and Singosari period (11th-13th century), the keris made with more detail. Some ricikans as the features of the keris to be made. The religion of Singosari and Kediri people are Hindu and Budha. On the Majapahit till Mataram period (13th-19th century), the keris made with more complete. After Majapahit period, the Islamic culture has beginning. So, we knew that the keris came without Kembang Kacang and Ron Dha, just simple shape, but in the other side, some keris has it with more detail ricikans like Ron Dha, Greneng, Sogokan, Blumbungan, Kembang Kacang, ect.. .. which has many senses, reasons, and can be interpretated as anything from each histories or backgrounds. Also the keris influenced by many religions and cultures on the way of the keris it self. So, why we just talking about the Ron Dha and didn’t give argumentations about the other ricikans ? If we want to debate just about the ricikans, we must talking about the another ricikans too as the overwhole aspects on the keris it self. Then, how if we talk about the Sogokan or Blumbungan ? Where it came from ? Or which the religions has influenced this ricikans ? So, if the RonDha and Kembang Kacang or Greneng just stand alone, it can’t be used to represent where the keris from or the period of the keris, also which the religious or culture which influenced the keris. Pusaka posted the pictures from New Balinese Keris which made with complete ricikans. I think it can’t be used to represent the old keris. And now, I posted the keris from Old period (before 10th century) till Mataram period (about 18th century). I hope useful to continuing this discussion. Regards, Mans. Note : Pusaka, you said that the pictures (the Balinese keris) which you used on this thread is for eBay ((For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example)) . I didn’t think so, because this keris has never listed in eBay. I knew the man who has this keris. He said that he send you the pictures via P.M. Did you has permission from him before ? Sorry, just to clarification your wrote. Ups, Sang Keris has told it Attached Images

17th January 2006, 05:35 AM	#12
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	I stumbled across the site searching for early Indian edged weaponry, interesting how the author writes about the influence and continuity of arms and armour through the ages by trade and cultural exchange. Anyone know of sites that show the other weaponry besides keris in the bas reliefs from Southeast Asian ruins? I'd like to compare later forms of blades that may have evolved from ancient periods as the of forging process advanced or changed over time. http://www.borobudur.tv/temple_index.htm http://www.orientalarchitecture.com/...bananindex.htm Last edited by MABAGANI; 17th January 2006 at 05:57 AM. Reason: added sites

15th January 2006, 03:51 PM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	A few things first Pusaka: 1. I am not at all angry, though maybe a little frustrated that you continue to put forth your theory with very little evidence as if it is an absolute. If you could show me an illusration of an AUM used in 14thC Jawa and then compare that to the earliest of Ron Dha known on keris i would be willing to give more weight to your aurguement. 2. I am not going "out of my way" to make little of everything you say. I am merely presently my own logical arguement to your theories based on what little i personally know about the keris. I would also love to solve this mystery. I don't know all the answers either, but i would like us to come as close as possible to the right conclusion based on solid evidence and observations. It may, as John suggests, remain a mystery. As i have said before, and will again, i like the way you think.This was a sincere comment, really. I actually think you are on the right track. I hope you will continue your research. I just think you have taken a slight wrong turn and if you think you are there already you are liable to miss something. Please don't take my diagreements with you personally. I am only trying to help you and all of us solve this mystery together. This is an academic discussion, not a personal one. John, i find your ability to determine the sound pitch of internet writing astonishing. Once again, i am merely presenting counter arguement. It wouldn't do us very well if everytime someone presented a theory that didn't quite ring true with us that we just threw up our hands and decided to go along with it. Repetition of an idea does not make it true. Remember WMDs? My biggest complaint about Pusaka's theory is that he is using a 20thC keris w/ a 19thC Ron Dha form compared to a relatively recent AUM symbol to establish the origin of a symbolic keris feature that first appeared in a different form 600 yrs. ago. This is just bad research. I am sorry that i do not have any examples of the style of AUM symbol used in 14thC Jawa, but ALL these things have changed and evolved over the centuries. It would be wonderful if someone could find an authenticated example. I have, however, attached a drawing first sketched by Empu Suparman of the differences between Ron Dha of different periods of keris. It appeared, i believe, in a 1990 Knife Magazine article by, yes, Alan Maisey. You are correct that i do base a great deal of my understanding of the keris on Alan's writings and guidance. Still, i do have a mind of my own and we have not always agreed on all points keris. Attached Images

15th January 2006, 02:21 PM	#1
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Nechesh, calm down, you’re a very angry person, it’s only a damn forum debate, relax. I notice that you go out of your way to make little of anything I say, but that’s fine. As I said before is the symbol I used for Om really modern?

15th January 2006, 10:21 PM	#3
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Personally I am satisfied that the markings relate to the Om symbol and have the same meaning, this is my own personal belief so I am not saying you must agree. Im sure there is very little difference between a Javanese Om symbol and a Balinese Om symbol. We can see relationships in them all.

15th January 2006, 10:27 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	John, you are absolutely right. And to Pusaka, my apologies for suggesting you were being arrogant to assume that if you saw no meaning in something that it simply doesn't exist. That was a judgement on my part and may very well have been an incorrect one. Sometimes we hit the enter key before we completely think things through. Still John, your post here seems like something best dealt with in PM as i think we are back on the academic track now and i think finger pointing will only tend to derail that. Also, Pusaka seems the kind of chap who is very capable of fighting his own battles. Yes, i was guilty as well, and for that i am sorry. I had already PMed Pusaka to say as much and offer him help in his studies. Let's move on, shall we?

16th January 2006, 06:17 AM	#5
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	http://www.hindunet.org/saraswati/indianarms.htm

16th January 2006, 01:21 PM	#6
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	Pusaka ( D C ) , i really don't care about the discussion , but please DO NOT use my keris picture for model without permission ...!

16th January 2006, 01:31 PM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for the link, mabagani!

16th January 2006, 01:35 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Sorry Sang (W H) I did not think you would mind since you post them on ebay often, but sorry I should have asked you first. You know I sent you an email but you did not respond.

17th January 2006, 07:23 PM	#13
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In the Rig Veda Indras thunderbolt weapon is described. It has a notched surface. It is firmly held in Indras hands. It is sthavira (stable) and Dgarnssi (durable). It is a fatal weapon made of a metal called Ayas. In relation the quote below taken from: http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ma...k_projects.htm • Rigveda mentions ayas about 10 times – e.g. Indra's horse had the same color as asay. (Assumed to be iron; but Tripathi disagrees because there is also Krishna-ayas, etc in texts.) Also, was iron found in neighboring countries, hence assumed to be from there. • Refuting the above, Tripathi finds that iron in India is much earlier. Baluchistan cemeteries have iron objects. Some earlier iron in western Asia was meteorite material sculptured as rock/stone carvings, and with no metallurgical processing at all. If Tripathi is correct and Ayas is meteorite iron then this means that not only do the daggers which Indra holds have wavy blades but they are made from meteorite iron. Which incidentally is durable because it often contains a high nickel content which retards rusting. Such daggers would have been manufactured for ritual use and it’s probable that they were quite rare. I don’t think that they would have been used for fighting or put on display every day but where probably only used special rituals. Could this dagger have evolved into the keris? I think we are perhaps making a mistake in thinking that ALL keris are related and therefore evolved from each other. We know that there is a difference between a keris worn everyday and a keris pusaka. Some keris are thought to have what we may call mystical powers and these keris are certainly not worn in everyday life but only treated with the utmost respect. I would suggest that these mystical keris would only be used for ritual and never for fighting. I would also suggest that they would probably be well made and elaborately decorated. Does the keris pusaka descend from Indras ritual weapon? If so it would be considered as a weapon of a god and therefore well respected and only handled by appropriate persons.

15th January 2006, 05:11 PM	#15
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	To be honest nechesh I personally can see very little difference between the images you posted, just the characters are more defined in some then others yet they are still the same characters in all. Secondly I don’t know why you think the Om symbol is modern, its my understanding that the symbol relates to Brahmi text which makes it ancient indeed. I will see if I can contact someone who will clear this up. Can you please post the original illustration so that I may look at them in detail.